What really is first party nowadays? Definition of first/second/third party games.

[Ezekiel]

You are confusing licensed material IP with game IP.

Sony used the licensed material IP from Marvel to build the game IP.
"Marvel's Spider-Man" game IP is not owned by Marvel... it is owned by Sony.
Others Spider-man games IP are owned to others parties (yeap it is not the first game IP based in a licensed IP name).
And others publishers / developers / platform holders can created it own game IP based in Marvel Spider-man in the future if Marvel licenses the material to them.
Marvel's Spider-Man games created by Sony are indeed first-party.

But maybe you need another example.

The Witcher.
You have the licensed IP name that will be used by your game... that is owned by the autor of the books.
CDPR created their own "Witcher" game that are their own game IP... it is based in the licensed material they got from the autor.

CDPR owns The Witcher games they produced... it is their IP.
But the material they based the game is not owned by them... it is licensed.

Yeah sure, licensed, so not owned.

If Disney/Marvel decided to go with another developer and publisher for a spider-man game, they could, and there's nothing Sony could do about it.

At the end of the day, SIE financed and published Marvel's Spider-Man on their storefront, which makes it a first party product from the point of view of the customer.

Same as Stellar Blade and Rise of the Ronin.

 

[ethomaz]

Yeah sure, licensed, so not owned.

If Disney/Marvel decided to go with another developer and publisher for a spider-man game, they could, and there's nothing Sony could do about it.

At the end of the day, SIE financed and published Marvel's Spider-Man on their storefront, which makes it a first party product from the point of view of the customer.

Same as Stellar Blade and Rise of the Ronin.

That already happened… there are Spider-Man games since NES.

That doesn’t change the Spider-Man games created by Sony are first party because it is Sony’s game IP based in licensed material.

If MS get the license and make a game with Spider-Man it will be the MS’s game IP with licensed material.

The Sony’s Spider-Man games won’t become 3rd-party because MS release their own game IP based on Spider-Man.

That is how licensed material works… you can have several games at the same time being developed by different players… but only the game IP you created and own is first party to you.

BTW Stellar Blade is 3rd-party.
I do t know who owns the Rise of Ronin’s game IP so I can’t say what it is.

 

[arvfab]

I do t know who owns the Rise of Ronin’s game IP so I can’t say what it is.

Koei owns the IP, so it's 3rd party. You can see it in the PS Store page and here:

RISE OF THE RONIN Trademark Application of KOEI TECMO GAMES CO., LTD. - Serial Number 79358822 :: Justia Trademarks

Consumer video game programs; downloadable consumer video game programs; electronic circuits and CD-ROMs recorded with programs for hand-held games with liquid crystal displays; programs for hand-held games with liquid crystal displays; computer game programs; phonograph records; downloadable...

trademarks.justia.com

 

[akira__]

Koei owns the IP, so it's 3rd party. You can see it in the PS Store page and here:

Note: gears of war was in that same category until 2014.

Perception for some reason also plays a role.

 

[arvfab]

Note: gears of war was in that same category until 2014.

Perception for some reason also plays a role.

Gears was a 3rd party game. It became 1st party the moment Microsoft bought the IP from Epic, after Epic "threatened" to launch it on PlayStation.

 

[Killer_Sakoman]

God damn you'd think people finally understood what first party means.

If a platform holder publishes a game on its platform, that's a first party game.

IP ownership has nothing to do with.

Studio ownership has nothing to do with it.

It's all about a platform holder publishing a game on its platform.

It's that simple.

Lol, you are wrong. First party IP is an IP a publisher owns wither they publish it or nor. Wither they develop it or not.

Demon's Souls is a first party IP owned by Sony and was published by Atlus in the US. Demon's Souls is a first party game.
Sackboy was developed by 3rd party developer but is owned by Sony. Sackboy is a first party IP.
Death Stranding is owned by Kojima. Developed by Kojima. Funded and published by Sony. Death Stranding is still 3rd party IP.

 

[Ezekiel]

Lol, you are wrong. First party IP is an IP a publisher owns wither they publish it or nor. Wither they develop it or not.

Demon's Souls is a first party IP owned by Sony and was published by Atlus in the US. Demon's Souls is a first party game.
Sackboy was developed by 3rd party developer but is owned by Sony. Sackboy is a first party IP.
Death Stranding is owned by Kojima. Developed by Kojima. Funded and published by Sony. Death Stranding is still 3rd party IP.

You're talking about IP ownership, I'm talking about first party games on a storefront.

 

[Yurinka]

Now you are starting to get there...

Just little fixes.

Publisher rights have nothing to do with the any of these definition because publishing right can go to anybody.
Sony can right now contract a 3rd-party publisher to publish their first-party games and they will continue being first-party games.
Having another company publishing your own games doesn't make them 3rd-party.

For example.

Death Stranding before Kojima get back the IP ownership.
The game were Sony's first party.
Another company publishing it on PC doesn't make it any less first-party (or second party if you wish)... it continue being a Sony's first-party game.
Like MLB being published by MLB on Xbox continue being a Sony's first-party game developed by a Sony's first-party studio... Sony even counts it revenue as "Revenue from first-party games in others platforms".

Of course now it is not anymore because they sold the IP back to Kojima.

Stellar Blade was never a first-party game.
Neither a second-party game.
It is a 3rd-party game.

Even if it is developed by a 3rd-party developer that has a exclusive contract with Sony... aka second-party developer.

How publishes the game doesn't matter at all.

PS. I should have used the MLB example early that should had killed most of replies I received with others guys that had no ideia what they were talking about (not you specifically... you are just confusing things).

Death Stranding 1, Director's Cut and DS2 are PlayStation first party games because are published there by the platform holder: Sony. Independently of who owns the IP. Kojipro isn't owned by Sony, so it's a 3rd party studio. But works in 2nd party games for Sony and MS, so it's a 2nd party studio of both. But for PC or Xbox they are 3rd party games because aren't published by the PC or Xbox platform holder.

Same goes when the MS games: they are first party games for Xbox, but they are 3rd party games for PS.

I shown you a legal document saying Stellar Blade is a second party game, which also means it's a first party game.

As can be seen in Sony's documents and videos, MLB The Show is also a first party game on PlayStation because it's published by Sony, even if they don't own the IP. And it's a 3rd party game on Xbox or Switch because Sony isn't the Xbox or Switch platform holder.

3rd-party developers can have two types of different exclusive contracts types with Sony:

• A second party deal (second party game, Sony is the publisher of the game) like Stellar Blade, Death Stranding, Helldivers 2 or Bloodborne.
• A third party exclusive (third party game, Sony isn't the publisher of the game) like Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, Silent Hill 2, ZZZ, Granblue Fantasy Relink, Guilty Gear Strive, etc.

Each one of these two types have different variants, Sony's involvement varies per case but the distinction between 2nd and 3rd party remains the same: if the publisher is the platform holder or not.

 

[ethomaz]

Death Stranding 1, Director's Cut and DS2 are PlayStation first party games because are published there by the platform holder: Sony. Independently of who owns the IP.

Kojipro isn't owned by Sony, so it's a 3rd party studio. But works in 2nd party games for Sony and MS, so it's a 2nd party studio of both.

I shown you a legal document saying Stellar Blade is a second party game, which also means it's a first party game.

As can be seen in Sony's documents and videos, MLB The Show is also a first party game on PlayStation because it's published by Sony, even if they don't own the IP. And it's a 3rd party game on Xbox or Switch.

You showed a document talking about Second party studio...

Death Stranding is 3rd-party now... no matter who published it.
It was first party to PlayStation even when somebody else published it on PC.

MLB The Show is first party game even on Xbox and Switch.
Let me remember you how Sony post in earnings the MLB results:

Page 9/10.

https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/24q2_supplement.pdf

Nice you finally realized that publishing it has nothing to do with a game being first-party or not.
BTW Sony's own MLB game IP (they created it)... they don't own the licensed IP material which it is based... let's says they own The Show game IP... they don't own the MLB licensed IP material.
Just like EA owns their football game IP based in licensed material from FIFA IP... so they just removed the licensed IP material and continued selling their game.

I think we are done here... you wanted official docs... you have official docs now.
Think a bit about why Sony calls The Show on Xbox and Switch as first-party game... that will make you review a lot of your posts in this thread.
And why Stellar Blade's revenue is posted together with Wukong's revenue on 3rd-parties.

 

[Yurinka]

You showed a document talking about Second party studio...

Death Stranding is 3rd-party now... no matter who published it.
It was first party to PlayStation even when somebody else published it on PC.

MLB The Show is first party game even on Xbox and Switch.
Let me remember you how Sony post in earnings the MLB results:

Page 9/10.

https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/24q2_supplement.pdf

Nice you finally realized that publishing it has nothing to do with a game being first-party or not.

Even if they sold the IP, Death Stranding continues being a Sony first party game because Sony continues and will continue publishing Death Stranding, Death Stranding Director's Cut and Death Stranding 2 on PlayStation.

MLB, Destiny 2, Marvel's Spider-Man, Helldivers 2 are also PlayStation first party games because they are published on PS by Sony.

So yes, for Sony and in the context of Sony explaining to their investors the money Sony makes with their own games outside PS they are all first party games. When Sony makes the distinction in these documents between 1st and 3rd party games they always mean if the games are published by Sony (1st party, which also includes 2nd party) or not (3rd party), because outside that 'other software' the rest of their gaming relate info in these documents is to talk about PlayStation.

But for the non-PS platforms like Xbox, Switch and PC all of them are 3rd party. Nintendo or Xbox won't list Sony games under their first party videos or reports because the Xbox first party games are those published by MS owned companies and the Switch first party games are those published by Nintendo owned companies.

 

[ethomaz]

Even if they sold the IP, Death Stranding continues being a Sony first party game because Sony continues and will continue publishing Death Stranding, Death Stranding Director's Cut and Death Stranding 2 on PlayStation.

MLB, Destiny 2, Marvel's Spider-Man, Helldivers 2 are also PlayStation first party games because they are published on PS by Sony.

So yes, for Sony and in the context of Sony explaining to their investors the money Sony makes with their own games outside PS they are all first party games. When Sony makes the distinction in these documents between 1st and 3rd party games they always mean if the games are published by Sony (1st party, which also includes 2nd party) or not (3rd party), because outside that 'other software' the rest of their gaming relate info in these documents is to talk about PlayStation.

But for the non-PS platforms like Xbox, Switch and PC all of them are 3rd party. Nintendo or Xbox won't list Sony games under their first party videos or reports because the Xbox first party games are those published by MS owned companies and the Switch first party games are those published by Nintendo owned companies.

Now you want to twist in the "view of Sony", "view of MS", etc.

We are talking here about what is Sony's first party games or not.
The Show is 1st-party no matter where it is released.
Star Blade is 3rd-party no matter who published it.
Death Stranding was 1st-party in the past no matter the place or who published it... today it is 3rd-party no matter how publishes it.

 

[Yurinka]

Now you want to twist in the "view of Sony", "view of MS", etc.

We are talking here about what is Sony's first party games or not.
The Show is 1st-party no matter where it is released.
Star Blade is 3rd-party no matter who published it.
Death Stranding was 1st-party in the past no matter the place or who published it... today it is 3rd-party no matter how publishes it.

It is not me.

The definition of what are the first or third party games of a platform is an industry standard: the games published by the platform holder of a platform are first party, and the ones published there by somebody else are third party.

The distinction of first of third party game only refers to if the game is published by the platform holder of that platform or not.

Which means that if Sony publishes a game on PS it is a PS first party game, and if it's published on Xbox it's a Xbox 3rd party game. And if MS releases a game on Xbox then it's a Xbox first party game, but if it publishes it on PS then it's a PS third party game.

In Xbox the first party games are those published by MS, and MLB isn't a MS published game. So MLB's Xbox version is a 3rd party game.

And for the same reason DS is a first party game for Sony/PS and a 3rd party game for the other platforms (PC, mobile, Xbox).

 

[ethomaz]

It is not me.

The definition of what are the first or third party games of a platform is an industry standard: the games published by the platform holder of a platform are first party, and the ones published there by somebody else are third party.

The distinction of first of third party game only refers to if the game is published by the platform holder of that platform or not.

Which means that if Sony publishes a game on PS it is a PS first party game, and if it's published on Xbox it's a Xbox 3rd party game. And if MS releases a game on Xbox then it's a Xbox first party game, but if it publishes it on PS then it's a PS third party game.

In Xbox the first party games are those published by MS, and MLB isn't a MS published game. So MLB's Xbox version is a 3rd party game.

And for the same reason DS is a first party game for Sony/PS and a 3rd party game for the other platforms (PC, mobile, Xbox).

Publishing has nothing to do with being 1st-party or not…

The Show being published by MLB doesn’t make it any less 1st-party.
MS releasing Sea of Thieves on PS doesn’t make it any less 1st-party.
Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 doesn’t make it 1st-party.

1st-party for any platform holder is what they own…. If the platform holder doesn’t own the game IP it is 3rd-party.

 

[Yurinka]

Publishing has nothing to do with being 1st-party or not…

The Show being published by MLB doesn’t make it any less 1st-party.
MS releasing Sea of Thieves on PS doesn’t make it any less 1st-party.
Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 doesn’t make it 1st-party.

1st-party for any platform holder is what they own…. If the platform holder doesn’t own the game IP it is 3rd-party.

You have no idea what are you talking about.

MLB The Show is a PS first party game because Sony -the PS platform holder- publishes it on PS, not MLB.

It is a 3rd party game on Switch and Xbox because it's published there by MLB, who isn't the platform holder of Xbox or Switch. So it is a 3rd party Xbox/Switch game there.

The PlayStation versions of Sea of Thieves, Minecraft, CoD are 3rd party games because they are not published by Sony, the platform holder of that console.

And yes, Bayonetta 2 and 3 are first party because Nintendo published them, even if Nintendo doesn't own the IP or the developer. This is the reason of why Nintendo included Bayonetta 2 and 3 (and tons of many other 2nd party games) in their first party lists and Directs and included MLB and the MS games instead in the partners/3rd party ones.

 

[ethomaz]

You have no idea what are you talking about.

MLB The Show is a PS first party game because Sony -the PS platform holder- publishes it on PS, not MLB.

It is a 3rd party game on Switch and Xbox because it's published there by MLB, who isn't the platform holder of Xbox or Switch. So it is a 3rd party Xbox/Switch game there.

The PlayStation versions of Sea of Thieves, Minecraft, CoD are 3rd party games because they are not published by Sony, the platform holder of that console.

And yes, Bayonetta 2 and 3 are first party because Nintendo published them, even if Nintendo doesn't own the IP or the developer. This is the reason of why Nintendo included Bayonetta 2 and 3 (and tons of many other 2nd party games) in their first party lists and Directs and included MLB and the MS games instead in the partners/3rd party ones.

The Show is Sony’s 1st-party game no matter where or who published it. I showed you the Sony’s financials saying it.

Bayonets 2 and Bayonetta are all 3rd-party exclusives on Switch.

Sea of Thielves will be a MS first-party game no matter where it is is published… well at least until MS didn’t sell the IP.

 

[KvallyX]

Ethomaz +100
Yurinka -100

 

[Yurinka]

The Show is Sony’s 1st-party game no matter where or who published it. I showed you the Sony’s financials saying it.

I said a million times that MLB is a first party game for Sony and PS because they publish it. On non-Sony platforms MLB games they are third party games.

Nothing you posted proved me wrong, they say the same I said.

Bayonets 2 and Bayonetta are all 3rd-party exclusives on Switch.

No, they are first party games (being specific second party games) because they are published by Nintendo. Even if Sega owns the IP and if they were developed by Platinum.

Same case of PS4's Marvel's Spider-Man before Sony acquired Insomniac: Sony didn't own the IP (Marvel did) and was developed by an external team (Insomniac) not owned by the platform holder (Sony).

Sea of Thielves will be a MS first-party game no matter where it is is published… well at least until MS didn’t sell the IP.

Sea of Thieves is a first party game for MS and Xbox because they publish it and are the platform holder.

Sea of Thieves is a third party game for PS, Switch or Steam because who publishes it there isn't the platform holder of these platforms.

IP ownership isn't related at all with a game being 1st or 3rd party. The difference between 1st or 3rd party only refers to if the publisher is the platform holder or not.

 

[ethomaz]

I said a million times that MLB is a first party game for Sony and PS because they publish it. On non-Sony platforms MLB games they are third party games.

Nothing you posted proved me wrong, they say the same I said.


No, they are first party games (being specific second party games) because they are published by Nintendo. Even if Sega owns the IP and if they were developed by Platinum.

Same case of PS4's Marvel's Spider-Man before Sony acquired Insomniac: Sony didn't own the IP (Marvel did) and was developed by an external team (Insomniac) not owned by the platform holder (Sony).

Sea of Thieves is a first party game for MS and Xbox because they publish it and are the platform holder.

Sea of Thieves is a third party game for PS, Switch or Steam because who publishes it there isn't the platform holder of these platforms.

IP ownership isn't related at all with a game being 1st or 3rd party. The difference between 1st or 3rd party only refers to if the publisher is the platform holder or not.

The Show is Sony's first party no matter the platform or who published it.

Bayonetta are 3rd-party unless Sega sells the game IP to Nintendo.
Sony already was owner of Spider-man game IP before they purchased Insomniac... who developed it doesn't matter to be 1st-party.
Sea of Thieves is MS's 1st-party no matter the platform or who published it.

Game IP ownership says if it is 1st-party or 3rd-party... not the publishing rights... publishing rights is just that publishing rights.
Kojima had to get back the ownership of Death Stranding to it be 3rd-party.
Stellar Blade is 3rd-party no matter who publishes it.

Sony will never put Stellar Blade in any document as 1st-party even if they published it because it is not first-party.

 

[ethomaz]

I let it here to anybody trying to say first-party games become third-party games when published by another company lol

Sales of first-party titles on platforms others than PlayStation consoles (aka PC, Xbox, Switch, etc).
It doesn't matter who published it... Sony continue owning the game and so it is Sony's first-party.

Edit - More.

 

[Yurinka]

The Show is Sony's first party no matter the platform or who published it.

Game IP ownership says if it is 1st-party or 3rd-party... not the publishing rights... publishing rights is just that publishing rights.

In this image you can see that you are wrong: Sony calls first party MLB even if they don't own the IP. You are wrong, I am right.

MLB (or Lego Horizon) is a Sony and PS first party game because Sony is both the publisher and platform holder. And that's why they call it first party there.

But all games on Xbox not published by MS and all the ones on Switch all games not published by Nintendo are 3rd party games. And that includes MLB and Lego Horizon.

Nintendo shows the MS and Sony games released on Switch on third party/partner showcases because they are not first party there: they are third party.

Bayonetta are 3rd-party unless Sega sells the game IP to Nintendo.

No, Bayonetta 2 and 3 are first party games because Nintendo publishes them, even if Nintendo doesn't own the IP. Because Nintendo is both the publisher and platform holder.

Just like MLB and Spider-Man are first party games on PS because Sony is both the publisher and the platform holder even if they don't own the IP.

Sony already was owner of Spider-man game IP before they purchased Insomniac... who developed it doesn't matter to be 1st-party.

That's stupid, everyone knows Spider-Man is a Marvel IP: it's even shown in the name or copyrights/trademarks.

Marvel licensed the Spider-Man IP to Sony to make some games, as did with Wolverine or X-Men. We even saw a leaked Insomniac document talking about that. Just like Marvel licensed to other people IPs to make Avengers, Marvel Alliance, Marvel Vs Capcom, Blade and so on. Marvel licenses their IPs to publishers allowing them to use them in their games, they don't sell them.

Same case as MLB did to Sony, or as Sega did with Bayonetta to Nintendo. Or as FIFA did to EA: an IP owner licenses their IP to a game publisher allowing them to make games with it.

Sea of Thieves is MS's 1st-party no matter the platform or who published it.

For MS or Xbox yes. In PlayStation and Switch it's a 3rd party game.

Kojima had to get back the ownership of Death Stranding to it be 3rd-party.
Stellar Blade is 3rd-party no matter who publishes it.

I even shown you a legal document and a press release saying that Stellar Blade is 2nd party (which means it is first party).

Death Stranding continues being 1st party for Sony and PS because Sony is both the platform holder and publisher of Death Stranding, Death Stranding Director's Cut and Death Stranding 2 on PS. Death Stranding always has been a 3rd party tiele on PC and Xbox because it wasn't published there by the platform holder of these platforms.

Sony will never put Stellar Blade in any document as 1st-party even if they published it because it is not first-party.

I already shown you a legally binding legal document and a press release saying so.