Austrian court says FIFA packs constitute gambling, orders PlayStation refunds

OP
OP
Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

MuscleMod
Moderating
28 Jun 2022
18,558
15,499
Yes… they are random, no?

if a consumer if paying for something it should exactly know what it is buying and not a random.
Although different uncharted cosmetic chest packs were random too then thy went even further and you could possibly get same cosmetic outfit just with a different color. That use to piss me off! Point is these companies go above abd beyond to make an extra buck and we get screwed.
 
D

Deleted member 417

Guest
Good move. I know the Uk were looking at doing the same but I think the pussed out.

Loot boxes and fifa packs are gambling aimed at kids. In most european countries you have to be 18+ to gamble, so these sleazy fucks found a way to get kids to gamble.
 

ethomaz

Rebolation!
21 Jun 2022
8,359
7,053
Brasil 🇧🇷
PSN ID
ethomaz
Although different uncharted cosmetic chest packs were random too then thy went even further and you could possibly get same cosmetic outfit just with a different color. That use to piss me off! Point is these companies go above abd beyond to make an extra buck and we get screwed.
And that easily fixed… it just needs to give you the option to choose the color of what are you buying (in FIFA case the choose the player).

They do that to make you buy several times until get what you want.

I understand gifts where you paid nothing to be random… it does make sense… even the drops of enemies to be random with random perks.

But if there is money involved you need to get what you want to buy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gamernyc78

ethomaz

Rebolation!
21 Jun 2022
8,359
7,053
Brasil 🇧🇷
PSN ID
ethomaz
Good move. I know the Uk were looking at doing the same but I think the pussed out.

Loot boxes and fifa packs are gambling aimed at kids. In most european countries you have to be 18+ to gamble, so these sleazy fucks found a way to get kids to gamble.
I think these types of gambling in games should not be allowed even for over 18.
 
D

Deleted member 417

Guest
I think these types of gambling in games should not be allowed even for over 18.
I agree. I was just saying how disgusting it is that companies aimed these gambling boxes at kids, not even at adults, and still get away with it.

Fornite is the worst offender. A ftp game popular with kids making billions in profit every year.
 

Bryank75

I don't get ulcers, I give 'em!
Founder
18 Jun 2022
7,907
13,665
icon-era.com
I like the way Destiny's eververse just has the items and a price for each based on what it is..... can be a bit too expensive though at times.

But they also rotate items into a bright dust list which is a currency that comes from playing, so you don't necessarily have to pay for everything in eververse with cold hard cash.
 

Yurinka

Veteran
VIP
21 Jun 2022
5,832
5,032
Yes… they are random, no?

if a consumer if paying for something it should exactly know what it is buying and not a random.
They are random, like the Magic cards or the mini toys in the Kinder chocolate eggs.

I think these types of gambling in games should not be allowed even for over 18.
I and other people who worked with me making top F2P games researched about it and saw many, many studies and internal numbers from different top F2P companies.

Gambling is when you bet and can earn real money as reward. The psychological implications of earning real money are totally different to earning non-real money rewards such as a random Magic Card, a random mini toy or unlocking game loot.

This is the reason of why real gambling games, such as online poker, slots or casino games have a totally different and super strict and compicated regulation compared to non-gambling games.

In terms of psychology of earning a random reward in a videogame (to pay an open a loot box, to open a free loot box, to break a Super Mario loot box during gameplay or possibly getting loot after killing an enemy) doesn't cause any issues at all.

That's what all serious studies said and what we saw in our in-game metrics and statistics. Around 80-90%+ of the players of a F2P never pay anything, around 80-90%+ of the ones who pay only pay $10-$20, and when the game is very successful on average the players who pay (not counting the ones who pay) spend an average of $50-60.

Then there's a tiny portion of the tiny portion of the players who pay who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. Part of my job there was to talk with these folks to give them a VIP treatment and to verify everything was ok. In some cases were rich people or executives who paid with their company's card, in the other cases were average people who spended the average monthly/yearly average of a console gamer but in this case they were super fans of that game and mostly only played it back then during years. They had hundreds or in a few cases thousands of hour played on that game, and instead of spreading their time & money budget time of the month/year in many games they spent it on basically a single game.

In I think around 8 years, across over half a dozen games, a handful of them with over 50M users, we only spotted 4 or 5 cases of issues: they were parents who accidentally kept their card there and the kid spent hundreds or thousands of dollars, and then we had I think were 4 or 5 cases more of stolen cards. Detected a few days later, back then Facebook (some where browser games) / Apple / Google were able to solve it by filling themselves or ourselves a simple refund form. Or they were able to contact their bank, in most cases. But that was for transactions made a few days ago, for the ones made months ago I don't remember if the banks or the platform holders didn't want or weren't able to make the refund or chargeback.

It's weird that for some reason recently there has been a handful courts or regulations calling these games gambing when they are not gambling and there isn't a singe decent study that proves they cause ludopathy or that they have the same effect than gambling. And in any case, looking at the in-game metrics and statistics it can be seen that statically they don't cause it.

Fun fact: at least some years ago, as you may know when the player pays something the developer gets 70% of the payment, Apple gets 30%. But when the player makes a refund or chargeback, the game developer returns 100% of that money. So in cases of a refund or chargaback, Apple still keeps the 30% for Apple and the developer after the refund/chargeback doesn't have the same money they had before the refund and the original purchase: the developer losed 30% of the transaction.

And in the specific case of iOS, Apple didn't provide us the player id of the refunds or chargebacks, meaning that we weren't able to remove from the player what they refunded, or even ban the account if they (we had some cases) purchased and refunded many times in a row something for a total amount of several thousands of dollars.

Why doesn’t Microsoft or Nintendo have to pay anything back if fifa is also on their console?
I assume because this player -like most of the ones who play FIFA- played it and paid the money on PS.

I think the question should be why Sony and not EA.
 
Last edited:

Gods&Monsters

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
4,419
9,017
Why doesn’t Microsoft or Nintendo have to pay anything back if fifa is also on their console?
I think those particular players were playing on Playstation so they sued Sony but that's bullshit imo. EA should be the only one sued.

Do they make anything off of the mtx? I thought EA got 100 percent from FIFA.
Why would Nintendo, Steam or Xbox give 100% back to EA without any store cuts and only Sony gets their 30%? Source?
 
Last edited:
  • they're_right_you_know
Reactions: KiryuRealty

KiryuRealty

Cambridge Dictionary High Priest of Grammar
28 Nov 2022
6,646
8,165
Where it’s at.
They are random, like the Magic cards or the mini toys in the Kinder chocolate eggs.


I and other people who worked with me making top F2P games researched about it and saw many, many studies and internal numbers from different top F2P companies.

Gambling is when you bet and can earn real money as reward. The psychological implications of earning real money are totally different to earning non-real money rewards such as a random Magic Card, a random mini toy or unlocking game loot.

This is the reason of why real gambling games, such as online poker, slots or casino games have a totally different and super strict and compicated regulation compared to non-gambling games.

In terms of psychology of earning a random reward in a videogame (to pay an open a loot box, to open a free loot box, to break a Super Mario loot box during gameplay or possibly getting loot after killing an enemy) doesn't cause any issues at all.

That's what all serious studies said and what we saw in our in-game metrics and statistics. Around 80-90%+ of the players of a F2P never pay anything, around 80-90%+ of the ones who pay only pay $10-$20, and when the game is very successful on average the players who pay (not counting the ones who pay) spend an average of $50-60.

Then there's a tiny portion of the tiny portion of the players who pay who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. Part of my job there was to talk with these folks to give them a VIP treatment and to verify everything was ok. In some cases were rich people or executives who paid with their company's card, in the other cases were average people who spended the average monthly/yearly average of a console gamer but in this case they were super fans of that game and mostly only played it back then during years. They had hundreds or in a few cases thousands of hour played on that game, and instead of spreading their time & money budget time of the month/year in many games they spent it on basically a single game.

In I think around 8 years, across over half a dozen games, a handful of them with over 50M users, we only spotted 4 or 5 cases of issues: they were parents who accidentally kept their card there and the kid spent hundreds or thousands of dollars, and then we had I think were 4 or 5 cases more of stolen cards. Detected a few days later, back then Facebook (some where browser games) / Apple / Google were able to solve it by filling themselves or ourselves a simple refund form. Or they were able to contact their bank, in most cases. But that was for transactions made a few days ago, for the ones made months ago I don't remember if the banks or the platform holders didn't want or weren't able to make the refund or chargeback.

It's weird that for some reason recently there has been a handful courts or regulations calling these games gambing when they are not gambling and there isn't a singe decent study that proves they cause ludopathy or that they have the same effect than gambling. And in any case, looking at the in-game metrics and statistics it can be seen that statically they don't cause it.

Fun fact: at least some years ago, as you may know when the player pays something the developer gets 70% of the payment, Apple gets 30%. But when the player makes a refund or chargeback, the game developer returns 100% of that money. So in cases of a refund or chargaback, Apple still keeps the 30% for Apple and the developer after the refund/chargeback doesn't have the same money they had before the refund and the original purchase: the developer losed 30% of the transaction.

And in the specific case of iOS, Apple didn't provide us the player id of the refunds or chargebacks, meaning that we weren't able to remove from the player what they refunded, or even ban the account if they (we had some cases) purchased and refunded many times in a row something for a total amount of several thousands of dollars.


I assume because this player -like most of the ones who play FIFA- played it and paid the money on PS.

I think the question should be why Sony and not EA.
I find a UBI employee throwing shade at anyone else over microtransactions to be hypocrisy of the highest order.
 
  • fire
Reactions: Deleted member 417

EN250

Member
17 Feb 2023
83
124
So... does Sony delivers the check to EA or what? Also, why is only Sony when the games are multiplatform? 😅
 
D

Deleted member 417

Guest
They are random, like the Magic cards or the mini toys in the Kinder chocolate eggs.


I and other people who worked with me making top F2P games researched about it and saw many, many studies and internal numbers from different top F2P companies.

Gambling is when you bet and can earn real money as reward. The psychological implications of earning real money are totally different to earning non-real money rewards such as a random Magic Card, a random mini toy or unlocking game loot.

This is the reason of why real gambling games, such as online poker, slots or casino games have a totally different and super strict and compicated regulation compared to non-gambling games.

In terms of psychology of earning a random reward in a videogame (to pay an open a loot box, to open a free loot box, to break a Super Mario loot box during gameplay or possibly getting loot after killing an enemy) doesn't cause any issues at all.

That's what all serious studies said and what we saw in our in-game metrics and statistics. Around 80-90%+ of the players of a F2P never pay anything, around 80-90%+ of the ones who pay only pay $10-$20, and when the game is very successful on average the players who pay (not counting the ones who pay) spend an average of $50-60.

Then there's a tiny portion of the tiny portion of the players who pay who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. Part of my job there was to talk with these folks to give them a VIP treatment and to verify everything was ok. In some cases were rich people or executives who paid with their company's card, in the other cases were average people who spended the average monthly/yearly average of a console gamer but in this case they were super fans of that game and mostly only played it back then during years. They had hundreds or in a few cases thousands of hour played on that game, and instead of spreading their time & money budget time of the month/year in many games they spent it on basically a single game.

In I think around 8 years, across over half a dozen games, a handful of them with over 50M users, we only spotted 4 or 5 cases of issues: they were parents who accidentally kept their card there and the kid spent hundreds or thousands of dollars, and then we had I think were 4 or 5 cases more of stolen cards. Detected a few days later, back then Facebook (some where browser games) / Apple / Google were able to solve it by filling themselves or ourselves a simple refund form. Or they were able to contact their bank, in most cases. But that was for transactions made a few days ago, for the ones made months ago I don't remember if the banks or the platform holders didn't want or weren't able to make the refund or chargeback.

It's weird that for some reason recently there has been a handful courts or regulations calling these games gambing when they are not gambling and there isn't a singe decent study that proves they cause ludopathy or that they have the same effect than gambling. And in any case, looking at the in-game metrics and statistics it can be seen that statically they don't cause it.
I am torn between two responses:

Cracking Up Lol GIF by Rodney Dangerfield


and

insanely-idiotic-things-ive-ever-heard.gif