Circana: Industry needs more overachievers like Helldivers 2 & Palworld. GTA6 importance. 2% down spending most optimistic out look in 2024.

Gamernyc78

MuscleMod
Moderating
28 Jun 2022
18,193
15,280

When GamesIndustry.biz reports on Circana, it's usually the tracking firm's reports on US consumer spending in the past month. But when we speak with Circana analyst Mat Piscatella, our first question is about what he sees happening in the months to come.

"Right now my most optimistic outlook is down about 2%," Piscatella says. "If you start looking a little bit on the more pessimistic side, you're looking at down about 10%. If things really go sideways, you're looking at a little bit more.

"There's so much uncertainty when you look at the sales data or look to project this year. There's uncertainty around the hardware. There's uncertainty about the content. Who the hell's making the games?"

"Helldivers 2 and Palworld have done a lot of heavy lifting early in the year, but we're up against a comp last year with Hogwarts Legacy"
He notes that the two biggest games of the year to date – Helldivers 2 and Palworld – didn't quite come out of nowhere, but they were "neighbors to nowhere."

"Helldivers 2 and Palworld have done a lot of heavy lifting early in the year, but we're up against a comp last year with Hogwarts Legacy, which was a massive hit," Piscatella says. "So we need another game on top of Helldivers and Palworld to try to comp what Hogwarts was doing last year, and it's still doing a year later."

It doesn't help that there are few obvious blockbusters coming down the pipe. Grand Theft Auto 6 is 2025, the Switch successor was reportedly pushed to next year as well, and Sony doesn't have any first-party blockbusters for the next year. And Piscatella doesn't think their absence automatically lends itself to games like Helldivers 2 and Palworld stepping up to play the role of blockbuster.

"The uncertainty level this year is probably the highest I can recall – and I've been around since 2005 – with the uncertainty of what's going to get us to the finish line because we don't have those big games announced that we know," Piscatella says. "When people are saying 'our slate's going to be light this year,' that's not something that usually happens."

He also wouldn't count on mid-generation refreshes for the Xbox Series X|S and/or PS5 to save anything.

"Are those happening? I don't know," he says. "I'm under a billion NDAs and no one's told me, so I don't know."

Even if Microsoft and Sony do roll out hardware revisions, such offerings don't tend to have much of a halo effect.

Viewfinder wins Game of the Year at the UKIE Video Game Awards 2024 image

Viewfinder wins Game of the Year at the UKIE Video Game Awards 2024
Read more on GamesIndustry.biz
"What they're best at doing is bridging," Piscatella says. "It really helps boost the average selling price. You're not building the install based significantly, you're just helping the ASPs and your profitability a little bit. It's a first-party play, a manufacturing play more than it is a consumer boost

"You'll get a lot of the very dedicated audience picking up a second one or they'll upgrade and pass along their older system to family, friends or sell it, but you don't see huge boosts occur when it comes to the hardware. You're basically stabilizing a little bit as you enter the later cycle and those normal declines you would have seen."

"Retail's had to get really clever, and on the physical side of the business it continues to decline"
As rough as it might be in general, 2024 might be particularly rough for gaming retail. The shift from physical to digital media continues, but another year without a Switch successor could be particularly painful to brick-and-mortar businesses.

"Retail's had to get really clever, and on the physical side of the business it continues to decline," Piscatella says. "With no new Nintendo hardware this year, it's going to accelerate because Nintendo is right at the 50-50 cusp when it comes to physical/digital, but everyone else is way digital. So retail still relies on Nintendo much more than they do other platforms."

It's not entirely all doom and gloom for physical retailers, though. He adds that gift cards for games like Fortnite and Roblox showed significant growth over the holidays, and are a way for retailers to participate in the success of digital games.

As the industry has evolved away from boxed products over the past 15 years or so, tracking methods have had to evolve with it. And where the monthly best-selling titles chart used to be a sort of end-all, be-all about what was doing well in the industry, that's changed.

The industry digital sales have never been tracked as thoroughly as those of the physical side, and even now Circana's numbers have some blindspots. For example, they lack Nintendo's digital sales, as well as sales for games like Palworld and others whose publishers aren't part of Circana's reporting panel.

"I feel worse than anybody that we have that limitation, but the trade-off is that the data reported is real, digital [point of sale]," Piscatella says. "We've been debating this since 2012. Is it better to have a list with just real numbers, or is it better to have a list with real and extrapolated numbers? And we keep leaning back to the real."


Rather than settle for having blind spots, Circana has been trying to get relevant insights in slightly more round-about ways. For example, it has been tracking engagement data since 2020 through a representative panel of thousands of players on Steam, Xbox, and PlayStation. Piscatella explains that they use each platform's friend list features to check in on what their panelists are playing every five minutes or so and stitch the results together for a broader understanding of who's playing what.

"If engagement means dollars, that's the list. And the best-selling titles list is good supplementary info to the engagement list"
But to Piscatella's slight dismay, a lot of the public focus around Circana remains fixated on its usual Top 20 best-sellers list.


"If engagement means dollars, that's the list," Piscatella says. "And the best-selling titles list is good supplementary info to the engagement list, but it's been a hard process to get people thinking that way in my conversations with the public."

Circana is a massive firm that tracks everything it can across a slew of industries, including automobiles, pet care, footwear, and groceries. But Circana says some of the things it does to shed light on the games industry are unique to video games. Part of that is due to the unique business models games use to drive the business, but its penchant for secrecy doesn't help much.

"Folks think they have secret sauce, and they don't want anyone else to know the secret sauce," Piscatella say. "I want people who are interested to be able to have at least some idea of what's going on when it comes to the numbers, but some of the stuff is super hard to get to and figure out. It's certainly not easy.

He adds, "You know movie slates. You know music slates. You know other entertainment things. We know the TV development schedule for Marvel going out forever, but we don't know what games are coming out next month."

Even without the industry sharing everything it has in store for us, Piscatella has faith that it will be good enough to grow sales. Eventually.

"This is going to be a tough year, but if you look towards 2025, if interest rates come down and money becomes a little bit more free-flowing to devs and pubs, we should get a boost in the development cycle again," he says. "We're going to get a renewed batch of interest with GTA 6 in particular. There's probably never been a more important thing to ever release in the industry, so no pressure.

"It's been a very strange five years in this market, just from the big boom to the hardware shortages to the topping out of engagement, but it's kind of a thing where we've regressed to the long-term trend and now we should be starting to get toward [following] that trend again as we go to 2025.

"I think it's short-term pain. Hopefully I'm not wrong. But it's going to be a little bit painful for this year."
 

Dabaus

Veteran
28 Jun 2022
2,630
4,026
2 percent down doesn’t sound that bad when you consider one platform holder basically tapped out and the switch is going on it’s 100th year. PlayStation and steam are carrying the industry on their backs.
 
  • they're_right_you_know
Reactions: Gamernyc78
OP
OP
Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

MuscleMod
Moderating
28 Jun 2022
18,193
15,280
2 percent down doesn’t sound that bad when you consider one platform holder basically tapped out and the switch is going on it’s 100th year. PlayStation and steam are carrying the industry on their backs.
True. Optimistically he's saying tht, it could be worse but we shall see.
 

Vertigo

Did you show the Darkness what Light can do?
26 Jun 2022
4,188
4,064
Wut… their engagement tracker is bogus 😂. Based on sample audience. Welp, I no longer subscribe to that one at all… we can all make guesses from our friends lists. Heh. Whatever man
 

Danja1187

Veteran
10 Mar 2023
3,368
3,185
That's what happens when clueless suits hijack an hobby / industry they don't understand nor even enjoy. Gamers don't have endless time or money to waste on mediocre games created based off boardroom analytics.

Everyone but Capcom, FROM, Insomniac, Polyphony, Remedy and minor devs deserves what's coming to them.
 

Cool hand luke

Veteran
14 Feb 2023
2,220
4,158
...but engagement doesn't mean dollars.

but it's been a hard process to get people thinking that way in my conversations with the public."
But it's been a hard process to get people thinking about the healing properties of snake oil in my conversations with those buffoons uh uh uh I mean fine customers.
 

Cool hand luke

Veteran
14 Feb 2023
2,220
4,158
Circana is a massive firm that tracks everything it can across a slew of industries, including automobiles, pet care, footwear, and groceries. But Circana says some of the things it does to shed light on the games industry are unique to video games. Part of that is due to the unique business models games use to drive the business, but its penchant for secrecy doesn't help much.
OMFG. Someone please look up if they measure miles driven and steps taken for cars and footwear or if Piscatella is the bad egg.
 

panda-zebra

Active member
2 Mar 2024
122
154
NW UK
Interesting interview.
What's really interesting is that he went to the trouble of doing this whole interview and chose to use so many words simply to downplay his company's wayward guesses regarding how well Helldivers II did on PC vs PS5, right before the real numbers come out and embarrass him 😉 (only half joking!)

But yes, there's some interesting stuff there. US 2% down given the pressures on consumer spending, xbox shitting the bed hard, Nintedelays, Sony not having any upcoming releases in long established IP and '23 being pretty decent... that would be a technical win. 10% decline would be more in line with what all that should reasonably add up to I'd have thought. Then again, SoT is going to do 10M on PS5 and save the industry +10% believe!

Wut… their engagement tracker is bogus 😂. Based on sample audience. Welp, I no longer subscribe to that one at all… we can all make guesses from our friends lists. Heh. Whatever man
I had to explain this on GAF, that it was formed from a representative panel not actual platform holder data as many were assuming. Reported the thread title for a change, but he'd deleted the tweets by then and the change wasn't exactly the one I was looking for, focussing more on the change than the fact that the numbers are generated not measured. Something at least interesting on that front is we now know they ping the panel 24 times an hour (assumingly 24 hours a day) and it's friend-list based rather than manual reporting, so a little more of the puzzle is obtained if not a particularly important one.
 
OP
OP
Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

MuscleMod
Moderating
28 Jun 2022
18,193
15,280
What's really interesting is that he went to the trouble of doing this whole interview and chose to use so many words simply to downplay his company's wayward guesses regarding how well Helldivers II did on PC vs PS5, right before the real numbers come out and embarrass him 😉 (only half joking!)

But yes, there's some interesting stuff there. US 2% down given the pressures on consumer spending, xbox shitting the bed hard, Nintedelays, Sony not having any upcoming releases in long established IP and '23 being pretty decent... that would be a technical win. 10% decline would be more in line with what all that should reasonably add up to I'd have thought. Then again, SoT is going to do 10M on PS5 and save the industry +10% believe!


I had to explain this on GAF, that it was formed from a representative panel not actual platform holder data as many were assuming. Reported the thread title for a change, but he'd deleted the tweets by then and the change wasn't exactly the one I was looking for, focussing more on the change than the fact that the numbers are generated not measured. Something at least interesting on that front is we now know they ping the panel 24 times an hour (assumingly 24 hours a day) and it's friend-list based rather than manual reporting, so a little more of the puzzle is obtained if not a particularly important one.
💪
 

Vertigo

Did you show the Darkness what Light can do?
26 Jun 2022
4,188
4,064
I had to explain this on GAF, that it was formed from a representative panel not actual platform holder data as many were assuming. Reported the thread title for a change, but he'd deleted the tweets by then and the change wasn't exactly the one I was looking for, focussing more on the change than the fact that the numbers are generated not measured. Something at least interesting on that front is we now know they ping the panel 24 times an hour (assumingly 24 hours a day) and it's friend-list based rather than manual reporting, so a little more of the puzzle is obtained if not a particularly important one.

Unfortunate tbh since we have COMPLETE steam, windows pc and Xbox engagement trackers publicly available (Xbox by hours steam with concurrent trackers.) The only question is PlayStation. Thought this was the answer for now… IT IS NOT.
 

xollowsob

Veteran
6 Jan 2024
586
478
Spending down 2% as the most optimistic target?

But I was called dumb for saying the industry isn't healthy. How can Circana be this dumb?
 

Dabaus

Veteran
28 Jun 2022
2,630
4,026

Like I said, Xbox has all but formally said they give up and switch is in its hundreth year. PS5 and steam are carrying the entire AAA games industry on their back now. PS5 has a good installed base but it still needs to be way higher to sustain everything IMO. Discless model should stay at 399. and discdrive at the most 450.00
 
OP
OP
Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

MuscleMod
Moderating
28 Jun 2022
18,193
15,280
Serves them right, that is about the same percentage as their workforce cuts.

Self fulfilling prophecy, not all gamers are suckers and even the slowest ones to wake up to it aren't going to be fine being ripped off forever.
I agree but this will only lead to more closures unfortunately.