Buying IP through studio acquisition vs. creating IP through studio acquisition.

[Kyoji]

Can anyone list example(s) of playstation taking away well known established IP’S from studio acquisitions, for example when they purchased naughty dog, guerilla, insomniac, bluepoint, sucker punch, housemarque etc. etc.?

Reason i am asking is because i cant think of a single IP that was once multiplat and well established (as in its popularity) that was made exclusive. Uncharted ,TLOU, Horizon, Ghosts of Tsushima etc etc. ALL developed and made popular after acquisition or in the case of games like Returnal.. were already contracted as being exclusive.

Theres a big false equivalency i am seeing on scoial media sites like twitter where people like benjisales and others cannot grasp how this is vastly different from acquiring developers whom already had a major footprint across multiple platforms, whos games have gained popularity in large part in thanks to playstation console gamers along with xbox and sometimes nintendo when applicable, the elderscrolls, hellblade etc.

Its very true that both xbox and playstation have bought studios in the past and present… but one is farming established IP’s for attempted engagement while the other is CREATING ips and bringing them into success and popularity after purchase, (not taking away and pretending they were there from day 1 in the creative process). Please know the difference!!! Why are people so DISINGENUOUS about this? Is it really that hard to comprehend?

Reading parts of the transcript from yesterdays hearing and phil spencer referencing ‘50’ games being available on playstation from xbox as if they had anything remotely to do with that or as if these games WERE not already released on the platform due to working 3rd party relations is insulting to the educated consumer and a slight on the judges lack of knowledge in gaming overseeing the trial

 

[Old Gamer]

Psygnosis was the multiplatform studio with the most popular IP (Wipeout even released on the N64) at the time, and it still barely made a difference.

 

[Nhomnhom]

-MS bought Rare and killed all it's IPs turned them into a studio that releases Sea of Thieves updates.

-MS bought Mojang, split the playerbase, turned a kids game into microtransaction hellscape and started releasing subpar spin-offs. They promoted AR Minecraft with the Xbox One and never released anything, promoted RT Minecraft with the Series and never released it.

-MS Bought Bungie because they were making Halo for the Mac and forced them to work on Xbox exclusive Halo games until they demanded to become independent.

-MS Bought Ninja Theory and Undead Labs in 2018 and they wont have released a new game until at least 2024.

-MS bought the Gears IP, canceled a game from Black Tusk Studios and changed the name of the studio, made them work on Gears and they have been releasing subpar and underwhelming Gears games since then (also acquired later in 2018, with a new game nowhere to be seen).

It's a proven failed strategy to go around buying a bunch of studios and IPs that you don't know how to operate (it's not only MS that didn't have success with it, EA, SE, it working out is the exception).

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Psygnosis was the multiplatform studio with the most popular IP (Wipeout even released on the N64) at the time, and it still barely made a difference.

Yes but Wipeout was made AFTER Sony acquired Psygnosis, and was funded through Sony's money (at least in part). So even that fails as a case argument of Sony taking a once-multiplatform series away and making it exclusive post-acquisition since Wipeout was arguably the result of Sony buying a publisher and that game being made multiplatform anyway.

Yes there were some kinda-weird terms for Psygnosis and they weren't fully integrated into Sony until like 2001 IIRC, so they did retain a degree of autonomy up to that point. But I think that example still stands. We've yet to see anything post-acquisition from Microsoft that was the result of a new or returning IP going multiplat for competitor platforms, that was 100% created under their ownership. Psychonauts 2? Was well into development pre-acquisition. Deathloop and Ghostwire Tokyo? Same. Minecraft? Same (and games like Minecraft Legends are just extensions of a pre-existing IP anyway).

Compare that to Bungie already announcing the return of Marathon, and it being multiplatform Day 1 (including Xbox Series). Microsoft's done literally nothing like this, or like what Sony/Psygonsis did back in the '90s, after acquiring a publisher. That should tell you a lot.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Yes but Wipeout was made AFTER Sony acquired Psygnosis, and was funded through Sony's money (at least in part). So even that fails as a case argument of Sony taking a once-multiplatform series away and making it exclusive post-acquisition since Wipeout was arguably the result of Sony buying a publisher and that game being made multiplatform anyway.

Yes there were some kinda-weird terms for Psygnosis and they weren't fully integrated into Sony until like 2001 IIRC, so they did retain a degree of autonomy up to that point. But I think that example still stands. We've yet to see anything post-acquisition from Microsoft that was the result of a new or returning IP going multiplat for competitor platforms, that was 100% created under their ownership. Psychonauts 2? Was well into development pre-acquisition. Deathloop and Ghostwire Tokyo? Same. Minecraft? Same (and games like Minecraft Legends are just extensions of a pre-existing IP anyway).

Compare that to Bungie already announcing the return of Marathon, and it being multiplatform Day 1 (including Xbox Series). Microsoft's done literally nothing like this, or like what Sony/Psygonsis did back in the '90s, after acquiring a publisher. That should tell you a lot.

As of recently we know MS went and renegotiated a deal with Disney to remove the future India Jones game from PlayStation. All the new Bethesda that were not involved in previous PlayStation deals were not released on PlayStation (Hi-fi Rush, Redfall and Starfield).

The way MS cries about this stuff and tries to play the victim card is not compatible with reality. Sony nor anyone else has any reason to believe they are above removing games from PlayStation regardless if it makes business sense for Xbox or not (their business is trying to kill PlayStation and always has been).

 

[Bryank75]

The one I always see brought up is Spider-man, even though it doesn't fit the title exactly....

Sony didn't buy the studio that makes the game with the IP included. The IP was offered to Microsoft first and rejected it.

It does seem like Xbox regret passing it up and have some resentment of the titles success on PlayStation though, their fans certainly have.

But in short, Sony never bought anything that really hurt their competitors directly or took a game away from them, they generally add to the industry, create and fund stuff that otherwise would never have been.

That is my huge issue with Microsofts strategy, it is growth by subtraction from everyone else in the industry....or at least their most direct competitor.
Less gamers get to play the games in order for Microsoft gaming to potentially have some growth and there is no guarantee that there will be enough growth to justify the purchase.
But hey, Microsoft has stupid money so they can do what they like to the industry.... I guess!
Who cares? It only took decades to build the industry back after the americans crashed it in the 80's. Greed!

 

[Gods&Monsters]

He counts Doom and Fallout 4 as "Xbox" games but 99% of the sales happened before acquisition. Same for Hellblade and everything else he bought. He's a lying and dishonest prick.

The trial yesterday was eye-opening about how all the FUD and lies about Sony comes directly from Phil Spencer. He was literally saying word for word what the known shills were saying online.

It was all coordinated and organized by Phil Spencer years ago. Sony should sue him.

 

[AshHunter216]

He counts Doom and Fallout 4 as "Xbox" games but 99% of the sales happened before acquisition. Same for Hellblade and everything else he bought. He's a lying and dishonest prick.

The trial yesterday was eye-opening about how all the FUD and lies about Sony comes directly from Phil Spencer. He was literally saying word for word what the known shills were saying online.

It was all coordinated and organized by Phil Spencer years ago. Sony should sue him.

Pretty wild how many people online totally believe Microsoft's portrayal of their competitor completely uncritically.

 

[Zzero]

And?

This argument is the most ridiculous cope that IE has and its embarrassing. It wouldn't fly anywhere else.

 

[Gods&Monsters]

And?

This argument is the most ridiculous cope that IE has and its embarrassing. It wouldn't fly anywhere else.

So buying Starfield and Indiana Jones after they were already announced and in development for years is the same as buying Firewalk?

 

[Zzero]

So buying Starfield and Indiana Jones after they were already announced and in development for years is the same as buying Firewalk?

Its the same as developing them internally. I don't know why you'd compare whatever Firewalk is working on to Bethesda though. Compare those guys to, like, Undead Labs or some other trash team.

 

[Gods&Monsters]

Its the same as developing them internally. I don't know why you'd compare whatever Firewalk is working on to Bethesda though. Compare those guys to, like, Undead Labs or some other trash team.

Under that Nintendo mask you're an xbot if you think it's the same. You make no sense. I guess you give full credit to Phil for the existence of Starfield too.

 

[Nitro]

List of acquisitions over the last 10 years and number of games developed per platform pre-acquisition. As you can see, Microsoft's targets hurt PlayStation gamers significantly more than Sony's purchases impact Xbox.

​	Microsoft​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2014​	Mojang​	1​	1​
2018​	Ninja Theory​	5​	3​
2018​	Undead Labs​	0​	1​
2018​	Compulsion Games​	2​	2​
2018​	Playground Games​	0​	3​
2018​	inXile Entertainment​	6​	5​
2018​	Obsidian Entertainment​	6​	7​
2019​	Double Fine Productions​	13​	16​
2020​	ZeniMax Media​	​	​
​	Arkane Studios​	5​	6​
​	Bethesda Game Studios​	8​	9​
​	id Software​	9​	8​
​	MachineGames​	5​	5​
​	Roundhouse Studios​	5​	5​
​	Tango Gameworks​	2​	2​
​	ZeniMax Online​	1​	1​
2021​	Activision (?)​	​	​
​	​	​
​	Sony​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2019​	Insomniac Games​	21​	3​
2021​	Housemarque​	12​	4​
2021​	Nixxes Software¹​	​	​
2021​	Firesprite​	4​	1​
2021​	Fabrik Games​	3​	1​
2021​	Bluepoint Games¹​	​	​
2021​	Valkyrie Entertainment¹​	​	​
2022​	Haven Studios³​	​	​
2022​	Bungie²​	3​	6​
2022​	Savage Game Studios₄​	​	​
2023​	Firewalk Studios³​	​	​

1. Porting/assist studio with few or no original releases to speak of
2. Bungie is a subsidiary under SIE with full control where and on what platform to publish. "The first thing to say unequivocally is that Bungie will stay an independent, multiplatform studio and publisher... They will operate autonomously within the SIE organisation, and they will continue to publish on other platforms."
3. New studio founded with Sony's support
4. Mobile developer

 

[Zzero]

Under that Nintendo mask you're an xbot if you think it's the same. You make no sense. I guess you give full credit to Phil for the existence of Starfield too.

I credit Todd for it, that game was in development for years and coming regardless so you can stop putting words in my mouth. Phil will reap its reward though.

 

[Danja1187]

List of acquisitions over the last 10 years and number of games developed per platform pre-acquisition. As you can see, Microsoft's targets hurt PlayStation gamers significantly more than Sony's purchases impact Xbox.

​	Microsoft​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2014​	Mojang​	1​	1​
2018​	Ninja Theory​	5​	3​
2018​	Undead Labs​	0​	1​
2018​	Compulsion Games​	2​	2​
2018​	Playground Games​	0​	3​
2018​	inXile Entertainment​	6​	5​
2018​	Obsidian Entertainment​	6​	7​
2019​	Double Fine Productions​	13​	16​
2020​	ZeniMax Media​	​	​
​	Arkane Studios​	5​	6​
​	Bethesda Game Studios​	8​	9​
​	id Software​	9​	8​
​	MachineGames​	5​	5​
​	Roundhouse Studios​	5​	5​
​	Tango Gameworks​	2​	2​
​	ZeniMax Online​	1​	1​
2021​	Activision (?)​	​	​
​	​	​
​	Sony​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2019​	Insomniac Games​	21​	3​
2021​	Housemarque​	12​	4​
2021​	Nixxes Software¹​	​	​
2021​	Firesprite​	4​	1​
2021​	Fabrik Games​	3​	1​
2021​	Bluepoint Games¹​	​	​
2021​	Valkyrie Entertainment¹​	​	​
2022​	Haven Studios³​	​	​
2022​	Bungie²​	3​	6​
2022​	Savage Game Studios₄​	​	​
2023​	Firewalk Studios³​	​	​

1. Porting/assist studio with few or no original releases to speak of
2. Bungie is a subsidiary under SIE with full control where and on what platform to publish. "The first thing to say unequivocally is that Bungie will stay an independent, multiplatform studio and publisher... They will operate autonomously within the SIE organisation, and they will continue to publish on other platforms."
3. New studio founded with Sony's support
4. Mobile developer

I'm really bummed Sony let Ninja Theory' get away from them.

 

[Nhomnhom]

List of acquisitions over the last 10 years and number of games developed per platform pre-acquisition. As you can see, Microsoft's targets hurt PlayStation gamers significantly more than Sony's purchases impact Xbox.

​	Microsoft​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2014​	Mojang​	1​	1​
2018​	Ninja Theory​	5​	3​
2018​	Undead Labs​	0​	1​
2018​	Compulsion Games​	2​	2​
2018​	Playground Games​	0​	3​
2018​	inXile Entertainment​	6​	5​
2018​	Obsidian Entertainment​	6​	7​
2019​	Double Fine Productions​	13​	16​
2020​	ZeniMax Media​	​	​
​	Arkane Studios​	5​	6​
​	Bethesda Game Studios​	8​	9​
​	id Software​	9​	8​
​	MachineGames​	5​	5​
​	Roundhouse Studios​	5​	5​
​	Tango Gameworks​	2​	2​
​	ZeniMax Online​	1​	1​
2021​	Activision (?)​	​	​
​	​	​
​	Sony​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2019​	Insomniac Games​	21​	3​
2021​	Housemarque​	12​	4​
2021​	Nixxes Software¹​	​	​
2021​	Firesprite​	4​	1​
2021​	Fabrik Games​	3​	1​
2021​	Bluepoint Games¹​	​	​
2021​	Valkyrie Entertainment¹​	​	​
2022​	Haven Studios³​	​	​
2022​	Bungie²​	3​	6​
2022​	Savage Game Studios₄​	​	​
2023​	Firewalk Studios³​	​	​

1. Porting/assist studio with few or no original releases to speak of
2. Bungie is a subsidiary under SIE with full control where and on what platform to publish. "The first thing to say unequivocally is that Bungie will stay an independent, multiplatform studio and publisher... They will operate autonomously within the SIE organisation, and they will continue to publish on other platforms."
3. New studio founded with Sony's support
4. Mobile developer

That is precisely the strategy Phil Spencer outlined.

He said:"PlayStation wants to grow by making Xbox smaller."

Hum... I wonder why he came up with that.

 

[Yurinka]

Psygnosis was the multiplatform studio with the most popular IP (Wipeout even released on the N64) at the time, and it still barely made a difference.

Firewalk is a top tiear AAA studio..

Psygnosis became a wholly owned Sony subsidiary in 1993. Wipeout's production started in the second half of 1994. Wipeout was released for PS1 and PC in 1995, for Saturn in 1996 and Wipeout 64 got released for N64 in 1998.

So since the start Wipeout was a Sony IP even if back then Sony decided to make it a timed console exclusive.

A couple of Psygnosis IPs that were multiplatform and after the acquisition became console exclusive were Lemmings and Shadow of the Beast, but they weren't relevant when did so.

Its the same as developing them internally. I don't know why you'd compare whatever Firewalk is working on to Bethesda though. Compare those guys to, like, Undead Labs or some other trash team.

As can be seen in their LinkedIn, Firewalk's key staff plus many of their senior or lead staff came from working in Bungie in the first Destiny (a few in Destiny 2 too) and some Bungie Halo games, or from Treyarch.

These or the other senior/leads have experience from -to name a few examples- Respawn (examples: Apex Legends or Jedi Fallen Order), Infinity Ward, Insomniac, Sucker Punch (senior environment artist of GoT), Bluepoint, Ready At Dawn, Sony San Diego, Naughty Dog, Super Massive, Camouflaj, Platinum Games, Firaxis, Valve (DOTA2), Rocksteady, Riot, Blizzard (example: Diablo IV, Overwatch, Heartstone, WoW), Bioware (both Mass Effect and Dragon Age series), Epic, Turn 10, Hi-Rez (Smite), Arkane Austin, WB (Howgarts Legacy, MK, Batman Arkham), Bethesda (Skyrim, Fallout 4), Ubisoft (AC Odyssey, The Division, Far Cry 4), Wargaming, Crystal Dynamics, ArenaNet (Guild Wars 2), Gearbox, Wizards of the Coast, CCP (Eve Online), 343.

In many cases, there aren't only 1 or 2 people who worked in these studios, but instead many of them, in several cases around a dozen or so.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

List of acquisitions over the last 10 years and number of games developed per platform pre-acquisition. As you can see, Microsoft's targets hurt PlayStation gamers significantly more than Sony's purchases impact Xbox.

​	Microsoft​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2014​	Mojang​	1​	1​
2018​	Ninja Theory​	5​	3​
2018​	Undead Labs​	0​	1​
2018​	Compulsion Games​	2​	2​
2018​	Playground Games​	0​	3​
2018​	inXile Entertainment​	6​	5​
2018​	Obsidian Entertainment​	6​	7​
2019​	Double Fine Productions​	13​	16​
2020​	ZeniMax Media​	​	​
​	Arkane Studios​	5​	6​
​	Bethesda Game Studios​	8​	9​
​	id Software​	9​	8​
​	MachineGames​	5​	5​
​	Roundhouse Studios​	5​	5​
​	Tango Gameworks​	2​	2​
​	ZeniMax Online​	1​	1​
2021​	Activision (?)​	​	​
​	​	​
​	Sony​	PlayStation​	Xbox​
2019​	Insomniac Games​	21​	3​
2021​	Housemarque​	12​	4​
2021​	Nixxes Software¹​	​	​
2021​	Firesprite​	4​	1​
2021​	Fabrik Games​	3​	1​
2021​	Bluepoint Games¹​	​	​
2021​	Valkyrie Entertainment¹​	​	​
2022​	Haven Studios³​	​	​
2022​	Bungie²​	3​	6​
2022​	Savage Game Studios₄​	​	​
2023​	Firewalk Studios³​	​	​

1. Porting/assist studio with few or no original releases to speak of
2. Bungie is a subsidiary under SIE with full control where and on what platform to publish. "The first thing to say unequivocally is that Bungie will stay an independent, multiplatform studio and publisher... They will operate autonomously within the SIE organisation, and they will continue to publish on other platforms."
3. New studio founded with Sony's support
4. Mobile developer

Let's hope one of the FTC lawyers either read this or have already realized similar and point it out in the courtroom. MS absolutely has a pattern with gaming acquisitions to directly hurt PlayStation; the fact they were even considering acquiring Square-Enix (and approached them with an offer) shows as such considering SE is a largely Sony-associated company and IP like Final Fantasy are in the same regard.

And the worst part about the argument Phil Spencer made about Sony doing 3P deals that "hurt Xbox" is that in the totality of 3P exclusives last gen, Sony only outright entered exclusivity deals with a small handful of the total market. Persona 5 wasn't an explicit exclusivity deal, for example; that was the result of Xbox having no presence in places like Japan and Atlus deciding of their own choice that Xbox wasn't a platform worth developing for.

In fact if you go back to the vast majority of 3P exclusives PS consoles have had since PS1, it's actually been the choice of 3P devs/pubs to make those games exclusive to PlayStation platforms 9/10 times, rather than Sony paying them to keep those games off rival platforms. That just shows how strong Sony have historically built up, marketed, distributed, and supported their consoles to both gamers and developers. So that gaming success begets further gaming success.

As for marketing deals...again, success begets success. If Sony pursued marketing deals with a specific release in an IP with a 3P that failed, and the result could be placed heavily on Sony, then that 3P would be much more open to going with Microsoft on a marketing deal for the next installment. If Microsoft were actually decent at marketing their own 1P games and systems, and consistently delivering in variety & quality of 1P games as well as having a few industry-defining mega-hits among them (and to a lesser extent, didn't self-cannibalize their own console sales with Day 1 PC push for all games), then they would have a large enough install base to make 3P more apprehensive to go with Sony on a marketing deal. Perhaps, maybe Microsoft would even get such a deal instead.

But all of that would require consistency, time, patience, and knowing how to actually read & lead the gaming market. Things Microsoft have shown are not in their corporate DNA, and gaming-wise won't be there as long as people like Phil Spencer are heading the division.

 

[Zzero]

As can be seen in their LinkedIn, Firewalk's key staff plus many of their senior or lead staff came from working in Bungie in the first Destiny (a few in Destiny 2 too) and some Bungie Halo games, or from Treyarch.

I don't care. One person does not a studio make and we've seen tons of times where vets go off to do their own thing only to have it not turn out anywhere near as "good" (either quality, sales or both) as what they had done at their previous studio. There's something like thirty "new" studios formed in the past three or four years of the games bubble by people going their own way and its a fair bet that half of them will be going away after their first (failed) release.... and plenty won't even make it that far. Just to compare, the "trash team" I recommended comparing them to, Undead Labs, was founded by Jeff Stain, cofounder of ArenaNet and executive producer on Guild Wars and later a senior producer on WoW and Starcraft. And while WoW and GW aren't my idea of a good time they were also both immensely profitable in a way that State of Decay isn't. Lightning doesn't have to strike twice.

 

[Yurinka]

One person does not a studio

Yes, but the ones I mentioned isn't one person. It's over 130 person most of them with top tier background in the studios I mentioned.