Everything happens for good

Muddasar

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22 Jun 2022
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Only positive from todays news is Sony have no choice now but to create their own roster of games rivalling ones which they will eventually lose.

Lesson learnt for Sony not to rely on anything 3rd party including Square Enix.

People keep talking about Square having a great relationship with Sony so they don’t need to do anything.

Theres no loyalty in Business. Square could be next.

MAG, SOCOM, Warhawk, The Getaway, Planetside and Everquest for example had so much potential yet Sony decided to simply let 3rd parties fill the void.

How Sony will be regretting disbanding Zipper Interactive and Selling Sony Online Entertainment.

Nintendo had to learn the hard way and are now completely self sufficient.

Now is Sonys turn.

Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo and Xbox.

They survived. So will PlayStation.

Keep the faith.
 
24 Jun 2022
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Does Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo, though? How many Sony 1P games are selling and generating revenue at the rate of TOTK, Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Pokemon etc? How many have consistently done this for the past 10+ years?

Obviously Sony have huge games like Spiderman and GOW, and decent-selling games like HFW and GT7, but what beyond that? Better yet, what are the profit margins on a lot of these? I'm willing to bet Nintendo's got much bigger profit margins on TOTK selling 10 million units, than Sony got from TLOU2 selling 10 million units, as just an example.

Look I'm not saying this to be doom & gloomer or anything, it's just an observation of the reality. I think if Sony's core buying base were as loyal as you say, their profits from gaming would be higher than they are, given the huge lead in revenue they have over Nintendo. I'd also argue, that Sony wouldn't have needed to feel they need to port the marquee games to PC, as well. Yet Nintendo's gaming profits are 2x that of Sony's. Granted, Nintendo doesn't have many other divisions outside of just gaming, but I'm not talking about the movie, music, finance etc. sides of Sony here.

I agree with you in the Nintendo analogy insofar as, Sony have to double down on what they're really good at, what gives them a unique identity in the market. But in Sony's case, IMO, that is going to be a bit more difficult. Most of their biggest 1P IPs are story-heavy games so they have built-in shelf lives simply due to that reason. One of Sony's biggest strengths is their ability to work with and empower 3P devs and pubs...how do they continue to do that when direct competitors are actively targeting Sony's closest 3P partners, without Sony making some acquisitions and big investments into 3P of their own?

I'd also argue one of Sony's other strengths was having a nice variety of 1P content. I'd say 2009-2013 PS3 was the peak from them in terms of that balance, between big heavy-hitting 1P AAA blockbusters, great MP FPS shooters & action games, more niche/artsy high-production AA efforts, and smaller AA games in a variety of genres. They have significantly scaled back on everything but the 1P AAA blockbusters over the past 10 years, and now when stuff like MS buying ABK happens, we see what that results in. What feels like a scramble of sorts, which could have possibly been avoided.

And at least going from the last fiscal plans, instead of shifting back to that variety in PS3 gen, they're keeping growth in 1P traditional games relatively stagnant, while pumping tons of funds into live-service GaaS content that they've even said, expect most of it to fail just to find one or two surefire hits. I'll be honest, that is not a strategy that I put a lot of confidence in.

So I have to respectfully disagree with you on the idea that Sony "just" need to focus on their own 1P content, because I think they need to seriously reevaluate some of those plans for 1P content, if they haven't done so by now. Square-Enix could be next for Microsoft or some other big company to buy? Well if Sony lets that happen, they deserve whatever further erosion of market strength comes with it. They should know what they need to do to secure the future prosperity of their gaming platform. They've seen the same documents we have, heck they saw them earlier than us, and more of them.

For now I'm going to give benefit of the doubt, and guess that they (Sony) are in fact making some redirected moves to things they genuinely need to, in order to secure their place in gaming. I've already said what those moves would look like from my POV: acquire a couple of publishers (at least one Japanese one (likely Square-Enix), if not two), acquire a few more smaller 3P devs for 1P content diversification (maybe studios like Vanillaware, Arc System Works, Ember Lab etc.), and purchase big shares in most of the big and mid-sized 3P publishers (EA, Take-Two, CDPR, Bandai-Namco, Capcom (if not acquired), Kadokawa (well, even more), Epic (same), Koei-Tecmo, Konami, Ubisoft etc.) and do some sizable investment partnerships with some of them as well.

That, in addition to a more sensible live-service GaaS approach, scaling back PC ports of non live-service games to larger gaps (or just not doing those ports at all), investing more into traditional AAA and AA content while leveraging legacy IP, is the general strategy I think Sony have to do now. It's not really an option to not pursue, anymore. They can't just 100% copy Nintendo's strategy and expect the same results, they'd of needed 20+ years having done that (with different choices along the way WRT IP retention choices of select franchises) to make that an option.
 
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Muddasar

Muddasar

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22 Jun 2022
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Does Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo, though? How many Sony 1P games are selling and generating revenue at the rate of TOTK, Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Pokemon etc? How many have consistently done this for the past 10+ years?

Obviously Sony have huge games like Spiderman and GOW, and decent-selling games like HFW and GT7, but what beyond that? Better yet, what are the profit margins on a lot of these? I'm willing to bet Nintendo's got much bigger profit margins on TOTK selling 10 million units, than Sony got from TLOU2 selling 10 million units, as just an example.

Look I'm not saying this to be doom & gloomer or anything, it's just an observation of the reality. I think if Sony's core buying base were as loyal as you say, their profits from gaming would be higher than they are, given the huge lead in revenue they have over Nintendo. I'd also argue, that Sony wouldn't have needed to feel they need to port the marquee games to PC, as well. Yet Nintendo's gaming profits are 2x that of Sony's. Granted, Nintendo doesn't have many other divisions outside of just gaming, but I'm not talking about the movie, music, finance etc. sides of Sony here.

I agree with you in the Nintendo analogy insofar as, Sony have to double down on what they're really good at, what gives them a unique identity in the market. But in Sony's case, IMO, that is going to be a bit more difficult. Most of their biggest 1P IPs are story-heavy games so they have built-in shelf lives simply due to that reason. One of Sony's biggest strengths is their ability to work with and empower 3P devs and pubs...how do they continue to do that when direct competitors are actively targeting Sony's closest 3P partners, without Sony making some acquisitions and big investments into 3P of their own?

I'd also argue one of Sony's other strengths was having a nice variety of 1P content. I'd say 2009-2013 PS3 was the peak from them in terms of that balance, between big heavy-hitting 1P AAA blockbusters, great MP FPS shooters & action games, more niche/artsy high-production AA efforts, and smaller AA games in a variety of genres. They have significantly scaled back on everything but the 1P AAA blockbusters over the past 10 years, and now when stuff like MS buying ABK happens, we see what that results in. What feels like a scramble of sorts, which could have possibly been avoided.

And at least going from the last fiscal plans, instead of shifting back to that variety in PS3 gen, they're keeping growth in 1P traditional games relatively stagnant, while pumping tons of funds into live-service GaaS content that they've even said, expect most of it to fail just to find one or two surefire hits. I'll be honest, that is not a strategy that I put a lot of confidence in.

So I have to respectfully disagree with you on the idea that Sony "just" need to focus on their own 1P content, because I think they need to seriously reevaluate some of those plans for 1P content, if they haven't done so by now. Square-Enix could be next for Microsoft or some other big company to buy? Well if Sony lets that happen, they deserve whatever further erosion of market strength comes with it. They should know what they need to do to secure the future prosperity of their gaming platform. They've seen the same documents we have, heck they saw them earlier than us, and more of them.

For now I'm going to give benefit of the doubt, and guess that they (Sony) are in fact making some redirected moves to things they genuinely need to, in order to secure their place in gaming. I've already said what those moves would look like from my POV: acquire a couple of publishers (at least one Japanese one (likely Square-Enix), if not two), acquire a few more smaller 3P devs for 1P content diversification (maybe studios like Vanillaware, Arc System Works, Ember Lab etc.), and purchase big shares in most of the big and mid-sized 3P publishers (EA, Take-Two, CDPR, Bandai-Namco, Capcom (if not acquired), Kadokawa (well, even more), Epic (same), Koei-Tecmo, Konami, Ubisoft etc.) and do some sizable investment partnerships with some of them as well.

That, in addition to a more sensible live-service GaaS approach, scaling back PC ports of non live-service games to larger gaps (or just not doing those ports at all), investing more into traditional AAA and AA content while leveraging legacy IP, is the general strategy I think Sony have to do now. It's not really an option to not pursue, anymore. They can't just 100% copy Nintendo's strategy and expect the same results, they'd of needed 20+ years having done that (with different choices along the way WRT IP retention choices of select franchises) to make that an option.

Agree with most you said.

My point is Sony need to be self sufficient just like Nintendo.

Whether that is make their own games or even acquire a publisher or two.

Not copy Nintendo. They are a completely different animal.

Sony needs to cover all bases in terms of first party output and not rely on Third party.

Support third party by all means.

About loyal fanbase. Where was Nintendos fanbase during the Gamecube and Wii U era?

I believe Sony hardware sales have been far more consistent than Nintendo owing to a bigger loyal fanbase.
 

KnittedKnight

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13 Jul 2022
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There is no bright side to this. That saying is one of the ultimate copes. I've always been disgusted by it's mention. It lacks brain matter most of all trying to hide fear and anxiety.

Bottomline, if CMA cracks into some theater remedy that doesn't include divesture I think it's safe to say that peace regime leadership at Sony is by fact, inappropriate. SIE will need new leadership soon. That atrocious, bare bones marketing dept needs a complete overhaul. Out of necessity alone
 
24 Jun 2022
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Agree with most you said.

My point is Sony need to be self sufficient just like Nintendo.

Whether that is make their own games or even acquire a publisher or two.

Not copy Nintendo. They are a completely different animal.

Sony needs to cover all bases in terms of first party output and not rely on Third party.

Support third party by all means.

About loyal fanbase. Where was Nintendos fanbase during the Gamecube and Wii U era?

I believe Sony hardware sales have been far more consistent than Nintendo owing to a bigger loyal fanbase.

Well in terms of hardware, yes, Nintendo's people failed them with Gamecube & Wii U. But look at the software sales on both, especially Wii U. They (Nintendo's loyal customers) supported them where it counted by droves. Much higher ratio of 1P software sales to consoles sold for Nintendo there, than any other platform holder. Don't even get me started on systems like the SNES, N64, or especially Wii and Switch. Or on Nintendo's profit margins off those software sales (since they rarely drop the price several years later) either.

That's what I mean when saying their loyal customers have shown more in that respect than Sony's, because if we're talking about Sony being more self-sufficient in gaming, that means net profits need to increase a lot. They can't count on $50+ billion in gaming revenue a year to match Nintendo's gaming net profits.

Aside that though, yes I agree with your general points on Sony being more self-sufficient WRT gaming, and it seems we both agree that will very likely need to involve some publisher & studio acquisitions alongside investments, share purchases, partnerships etc.

Sony and Nintendo should merge

Nintendo want nothing to do with Sony in gaming. In fact, they probably want Sony out about as much as Microsoft does, it's why we've seen these weird, cringe "Xbox x Nintendo" soft alliances even going back to the PS3 era (remember Wii60?).

And in terms of historical anticompetitive practices, Nintendo's probably more guilty than Sony and even Microsoft when it comes to the gaming market. They're the only ones who have outright been sued for antitrust and lost, for example.

If anything, Sony needs to reconsider the portable market and consider putting something there to put fire at Nintendo's feet again.
 
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Muddasar

Muddasar

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Well in terms of hardware, yes, Nintendo's people failed them with Gamecube & Wii U. But look at the software sales on both, especially Wii U. They (Nintendo's loyal customers) supported them where it counted by droves. Much higher ratio of 1P software sales to consoles sold for Nintendo there, than any other platform holder. Don't even get me started on systems like the SNES, N64, or especially Wii and Switch. Or on Nintendo's profit margins off those software sales (since they rarely drop the price several years later) either.

That's what I mean when saying their loyal customers have shown more in that respect than Sony's, because if we're talking about Sony being more self-sufficient in gaming, that means net profits need to increase a lot. They can't count on $50+ billion in gaming revenue a year to match Nintendo's gaming net profits.

Aside that though, yes I agree with your general points on Sony being more self-sufficient WRT gaming, and it seems we both agree that will very likely need to involve some publisher & studio acquisitions alongside investments, share purchases, partnerships etc.

Yes it needs to be a combination of both acquiring IPs and creating IPs to be self sufficient.

Sony definitely needs to put a ring on Square Enix.

Being in a relationship isn’t good enough with Microsoft and Tencent breathing down their necks.

Capcom is another. In terms of IPs no other Japanese developer comes close to what they have in their locker.

Larian Studios, Platinum Games, Level 5 and Arcsystem Works which you mentioned are also good options.

Not an impossible task if Sony have the ambition to stay relevant.
 

anonpuffs

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Keep the faith? Nah bro that's loser talk ("hold the line" anyone?). It's time for Sony to put up or shut up. They better dress to impress with a 2nd showcase this year.
 
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Muddasar

Muddasar

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Keep the faith? Nah bro that's loser talk ("hold the line" anyone?). It's time for Sony to put up or shut up. They better dress to impress with a 2nd showcase this year.

Which I’m sure they will.

No way Sony hasn’t been preparing for this outcome.
 

Kokoloko

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Does Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo, though?

It has a more loyal fanbase. But Nintendo has as much or more commercial popularity. Or potential peaks at times. Like DS, Wii, Switch ETC.

Nintendo Fans didnt show there love like I did for consoles like N64, Gamecube or Wii U. Ive bought every Nintendo home console and handheld.
PS fans still stuck by Sony in the worst gen with PS3 and it still Sold 80+million. And more than every other home console from Nintendo or Xbox except Wii
 
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Kokoloko

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Which is absolutely ridiculous because they have had over a year lead time, as soon as this deal was announced they should have proceeded with the presumption it would go through+all abk content pulled
Totally agree. I seriously doubt they will go and buy a publisher. Just like I thought MS was gonna gets it way with Activision. Id love to be proved wrong on Sony not buying Publisher. At this point, something like Square or Ubisoft would be a pointless reply too
 

Danja1187

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10 Mar 2023
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So agree! And it's something I've always said to gaming mutuals. That Sony realy messed up Shu in particular messed up killing off all their multiplayer studios.

MAG
Socom
Warkawk
Starhawk
Killzone Mercenaries - The Superior KZ game
DriveClub

Letting ND mismanage and eventually lose their fantastic Multiplayer team.

Turning down A multiplayer for Days Gone

Killing Uncharted 3 multiplayer

Losing Ready At Dawn

Throwing Hello Games - under the bus and souring relations

Just a few of the many issues I had with Shu.

But I'm hoping now that a fire has been liit under their complacency, we'll see some of that PS3 hunger again.

Current Sony lost their way.
 
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Danja1187

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It has a more loyal fanbase. But Nintendo has as much or more commercial popularity. Or potential peaks at times. Like DS, Wii, Switch ETC.

Nintendo Fans didnt show there love like I did for consoles like N64, Gamecube or Wii U. Ive bought every Nintendo home console and handheld.
PS fans still stuck by Sony in the worst gen with PS3 and it still Sold 80+million. And more than every other home console from Nintendo or Xbox except Wii
Nintendo had the younger generation. They will never lose that. I'm sure most of us started gaming thanks to them as well.
 

Kokoloko

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21 Jun 2022
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Nintendo had the younger generation. They will never lose that. I'm sure most of us started gaming thanks to them as well.
I started with Nintendo, still play Nintendo.
But simply the fans arent always there to support the home consoles. Which has never been an problem with PS
 

Danja1187

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10 Mar 2023
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I started with Nintendo, still play Nintendo.
But simply the fans arent always there to support the home consoles. Which has never been an problem with PS
True! satoru Iwata realized this and bridged the gap, by taking a concept hungry Sony started but they perfected it... Turned their portables into home docked console but making sure people could game on the go... Effectively killing them ever needing mobile.

Playstation should have also cultivated generes to cater to this demographic as well.

The PS base isn't as loyal as we think.
 

Box

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6 Apr 2023
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So agree! And it's something I've always said to gaming mutuals. That Sony realy messed up Shu in particular messed up killing off all their multiplayer studios.

MAG
Socom
Warkawk
Starhawk
Killzone Mercenaries - The Superior KZ game
DriveClub

Letting ND mismanage and eventually lose their fantastic Multiplayer team.

Turning down A multiplayer for Days Gone

Killing Uncharted 3 multiplayer

Losing Ready At Dawn

Throwing Hello Games - under the bus and souring relations

Just a few of the many issues I had with Shu.

But I'm hoping now that a fire has been liit under their complacency, we'll see some of that PS3 hunger again.

Current Sony lost their way.

Let's not forget PS Home and how much potential that had, it could easily have been Roblox level with the right direction.