Everything happens for good

Kokoloko

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Here's my thing: you're just focusing on console sales and 3P software sales. I'm talking about actual 1P software sales, and the profits off of that.

In that regard, yes IMO Nintendo's audience is more loyal. Look at the numbers their games were doing on even the Gamecube; many doing 5+ million, some even 10 million or more, on an install base barely over 20 million. Every single one of those games profitable, and on the lower side of production costs for AAA titles of that era. The average Nintendo 1P game saw comparable or even more sales on the Wii U, which performed worst than the GameCube in units sold!

Meanwhile, the average Sony 1P game during the PS2 gen was doing maybe 2 million, some maybe 5 million...I think only the GT games pushed 10 million or more, and that's with a significantly larger install base than GameCube. We've only seen more of Sony's 1P pushing 10+ million the previous generation, and again on a platform with way more 3P support and unit sales than the Wii U. And, I'd argue Nintendo had several games on Wii U alone which were more profitable for them than similar games Sony had on PS4 selling comparable numbers.

I see.

Ill take your word but I can’t remember what games sold 10+ million on gamecube. Maybe Mario and Animal Crossing?

Nintendo’s fan are loyal at times. But clearly at times they arent at all. And numebrs wise. PS hardcore fans kept PS alive during PS3. They have never NOT bought playstation. The same cant be said about Nintendo fans. Just by numbers.

Nes-60mlillion, Snes 49million, N64 32million, Gamecube 21million, Wii 100+million, Wii U 10 million. That isnt a loyal fanbase compared to PS Which minimum is 80million.

But those 10-20million Nintendo fans will always buy Nintendo and there software. Where PS will always have 60+ hardcore fans who buy PS and varied amount of 1st and 3rd party games.

Profits is another subject, Im not disputing that. But this gen is extra profitbable for Nintendo because they are still making games that look like they could run on Wii/Wii U and at times Gamecube. And so many ports that made there money back on the Wii U. Next gen will be a different story for them.
They have ported mostly everything and they can’t still make Wii U tech level games Next gen.

But also I don’t count my Friends sister and my ex’s kids buying switching for animal crossing as hardcore fans. And thats What Nintendo does best when they peak. They can reach alot more non hardcore gamers like Wii and Swtich Just like my grandma playing Wii lol.
Those type of buyers arent loyal fans.

Until PS sells less than 80million, they have loyal fans
 

shrike0fth0rns

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Does Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo, though? How many Sony 1P games are selling and generating revenue at the rate of TOTK, Smash Bros, Mario Kart, Pokemon etc? How many have consistently done this for the past 10+ years?

Obviously Sony have huge games like Spiderman and GOW, and decent-selling games like HFW and GT7, but what beyond that? Better yet, what are the profit margins on a lot of these? I'm willing to bet Nintendo's got much bigger profit margins on TOTK selling 10 million units, than Sony got from TLOU2 selling 10 million units, as just an example.

Look I'm not saying this to be doom & gloomer or anything, it's just an observation of the reality. I think if Sony's core buying base were as loyal as you say, their profits from gaming would be higher than they are, given the huge lead in revenue they have over Nintendo. I'd also argue, that Sony wouldn't have needed to feel they need to port the marquee games to PC, as well. Yet Nintendo's gaming profits are 2x that of Sony's. Granted, Nintendo doesn't have many other divisions outside of just gaming, but I'm not talking about the movie, music, finance etc. sides of Sony here.

I agree with you in the Nintendo analogy insofar as, Sony have to double down on what they're really good at, what gives them a unique identity in the market. But in Sony's case, IMO, that is going to be a bit more difficult. Most of their biggest 1P IPs are story-heavy games so they have built-in shelf lives simply due to that reason. One of Sony's biggest strengths is their ability to work with and empower 3P devs and pubs...how do they continue to do that when direct competitors are actively targeting Sony's closest 3P partners, without Sony making some acquisitions and big investments into 3P of their own?

I'd also argue one of Sony's other strengths was having a nice variety of 1P content. I'd say 2009-2013 PS3 was the peak from them in terms of that balance, between big heavy-hitting 1P AAA blockbusters, great MP FPS shooters & action games, more niche/artsy high-production AA efforts, and smaller AA games in a variety of genres. They have significantly scaled back on everything but the 1P AAA blockbusters over the past 10 years, and now when stuff like MS buying ABK happens, we see what that results in. What feels like a scramble of sorts, which could have possibly been avoided.

And at least going from the last fiscal plans, instead of shifting back to that variety in PS3 gen, they're keeping growth in 1P traditional games relatively stagnant, while pumping tons of funds into live-service GaaS content that they've even said, expect most of it to fail just to find one or two surefire hits. I'll be honest, that is not a strategy that I put a lot of confidence in.

So I have to respectfully disagree with you on the idea that Sony "just" need to focus on their own 1P content, because I think they need to seriously reevaluate some of those plans for 1P content, if they haven't done so by now. Square-Enix could be next for Microsoft or some other big company to buy? Well if Sony lets that happen, they deserve whatever further erosion of market strength comes with it. They should know what they need to do to secure the future prosperity of their gaming platform. They've seen the same documents we have, heck they saw them earlier than us, and more of them.

For now I'm going to give benefit of the doubt, and guess that they (Sony) are in fact making some redirected moves to things they genuinely need to, in order to secure their place in gaming. I've already said what those moves would look like from my POV: acquire a couple of publishers (at least one Japanese one (likely Square-Enix), if not two), acquire a few more smaller 3P devs for 1P content diversification (maybe studios like Vanillaware, Arc System Works, Ember Lab etc.), and purchase big shares in most of the big and mid-sized 3P publishers (EA, Take-Two, CDPR, Bandai-Namco, Capcom (if not acquired), Kadokawa (well, even more), Epic (same), Koei-Tecmo, Konami, Ubisoft etc.) and do some sizable investment partnerships with some of them as well.

That, in addition to a more sensible live-service GaaS approach, scaling back PC ports of non live-service games to larger gaps (or just not doing those ports at all), investing more into traditional AAA and AA content while leveraging legacy IP, is the general strategy I think Sony have to do now. It's not really an option to not pursue, anymore. They can't just 100% copy Nintendo's strategy and expect the same results, they'd of needed 20+ years having done that (with different choices along the way WRT IP retention choices of select franchises) to make that an option.
Nintendo has better profit margins than Sony on games because it’s a fcking trash hole corporation that doesn’t invest in hardware, high quality production, user experience and infrastructure. PS even pays its devs more. Nintendo hardware is trash and a lots of its games are technical rubbish.

Also most Nintendo games do not sell ppl act like totk and animal farm are the norm. Most Nintendo exclusives don’t barely cross 5mil in sales with an install base currently of 125mil. Hfw sold more than bayonetta, Metroid dread and xenoblade chronicles3 combined. Horizon zero dawn in the past 6 yrs has outsold the last 3 1/2 decades of Metroid games.
Triple A Multiplats will always run look and sell better on ps. In the past decade Nintendo home console sales have generated about 1.1 billion in software sales ps 2.5billion.
Nintendo is complete reliant on hardcore fans to keep buying their garbage 71% of switch owners have another means of gaming that’s not case with ps owners most of which use ps as their primary.
Nintendo is a lazy mass corporation that doesn’t care about quality user experience, quality product or even its devs.so pays their devs on average more spend more on game’s development by many orders of magnitude, actual spends money on social issues, doesn’t buckle and dime its player base by rereleasing the same decades old games at full price with zero technical upgrades. Nothing Nintendo does sony should be emulating. Nintendo survives off of nostalgia, greed, and exploitation.
 

Nhomnhom

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25 Mar 2023
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Sony has a choice to just concede and try their luck finding a GaaS hit while the PS5 gen is in their pocket. Not what I would want them to do but it's what looks like they are doing.

It's very possibly that just like MS Sony doesn't believe consoles are the future anymore (regardless if it's true).

I don't think the current Sony would survive a PS3 like gen where things are more even against a MS that has Xbox Studios + Bethesda + Activision + Blizzard + Minecraft + King. Not to mention that due to technological advances Nintendo portable are going to be a bigger threat moving forward because the perceived gap in power will shrink.
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Turns out MS strategy is better, since they subtract games from their direct competitor and add to their console.

Sony fucked up with Bungie, they should've just bullshited their way with vague responses like Phil Spencer did.

Sony is now MS's bitch they release games on Xbox like future Bungie games and MLB while MS pulls countless games away from PlayStation.
 
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Alabtrosmyster

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About loyal fanbase. Where was Nintendos fanbase during the Gamecube and Wii U era?
A fan base still need a reason to buy your console and games.

Sony always provides that to a degree, but the 3rd party content was always very important to their platforms as well. Now with future games like doom, CoD and what not gone from PS there will be a mass of people who may reconsider Xbox (when they have releases).
True! satoru Iwata realized this and bridged the gap, by taking a concept hungry Sony started but they perfected it... Turned their portables into home docked console but making sure people could game on the go... Effectively killing them ever needing mobile.

Playstation should have also cultivated generes to cater to this demographic as well.

The PS base isn't as loyal as we think.
There is no reason for me to buy a playstation if it doesn't please me at some level as a product.

People who think in therms of brand loyalty end up with bad products like the Xbox, where it's all about brand, services, business models, etc. That works for generic stuff like shoes, soft drinks, cheap beer, etc. This is very uninteresting and shows a complete lack of care for gaming.
 
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Muddasar

Muddasar

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A fan base still need a reason to buy your console and games.

Sony always provides that to a degree, but the 3rd party content was always very important to their platforms as well. Now with future games like doom, CoD and what not gone from PS there will be a mass of people who may reconsider Xbox (when they have releases).

Not loyal then if you ask me.

The PS1 and PS2 didn’t need COD, Doom to be successful.
 

Johnic

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Outer Heaven
Not loyal then if you ask me.

The PS1 and PS2 didn’t need COD, Doom to be successful.
COD didn't exist during the PS1 era and was a smaller franchise during the PS2 one. It has since become one of the biggest IPs in gaming. Ignoring that is ridiculous.
 
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Muddasar

Muddasar

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COD didn't exist during the PS1 era and was a smaller franchise during the PS2 one. It has since become one of the biggest IPs in gaming. Ignoring that is ridiculous.

Not the point I made.

I said the PS1 and PS2 didn’t need COD and Doom to be successful.

The PlayStation brand isn’t dependent on them.

Most gamers on Playstation don’t play COD or Doom on Playstation.

COD sells around 20 million per installment on all platforms including PC

Even being generous around half play on Playstation.

Around 10 million on an install base of 100 million plus.
 

Eternal_Wings

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24 Jun 2022
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Sony doesn’t need to reply with heavy hitters. What they need to do is securing their important 3rd Partners such as Square Enix, Capcom, Konami and Fromsoftware. Sony will need to create their own niche. Now let’s look back what Microsoft acquired since 2017: Many known multi-platform developers, followed by Zenimax which is already way larger than Square Enix for comparison. Now it seems they will also get Activision Blizzard King, the worlds largest 3rd Party Publisher. Mega-sized Publisher would has probably the net worth of all Japanese publishers plus Take Two added. Microsoft will not be able to buy a for long time any publisher. The Japanese pubs I don’t worry Microsoft will be able to buy them. Remember Square Enix rejected their second attempt in 2020 ans also Sega didn’t want to be bought by them in 2022.
But what I do fear is that Tencent could, probably because they are Asian too and that’s probably the why it would be easier for them than an American company. But now that we have received thanks to the FTC trial some spicy details. Microsoft’s consideration list for acquisitions plus their intention to kick Sony out of business.
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Sony are many things but surely not this blind and hopeless. Sony will 100% buy Square Enix. You guys don’t realise how important they are for whole Sony Group Corporation. They are working for decades across many different divisions in different industry segments. Music, Anime, Manga and even Hardware Design collaborations (Walkman, Xperia, Headsets in Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest design). I guarantee you that Sony will never let it happen, that Microsoft or another company gobbles Square Enix up. They are to import for Sony.
 

Yurinka

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Only positive from todays news is Sony have no choice now but to create their own roster of games rivalling ones which they will eventually lose.

Lesson learnt for Sony not to rely on anything 3rd party including Square Enix.

People keep talking about Square having a great relationship with Sony so they don’t need to do anything.

Theres no loyalty in Business. Square could be next.
Sony already has a bigger and roster of games thanks to their efforts in 1st, 2nd and (both AAA and indie) 3rd party games.

But if the Xbox console doesn't die before and ABK ends going console exclusive in 10 years from now or so (this is, by around the release of PS7) they already will had time to replace it with the 1st party shooters they already have in the works like:
  • Marathon (from the makers of Halo and Destiny)
  • Other Bungie new IP they may release by 2025-2026
  • More Destiny stuff
  • Concord (from the makers of Halo and Destiny)
  • Deviation's new IP (from the makers of CoD BO, if not cancelled)
  • TLOU Online (from ND)
  • Helldivers II (probably Sony's Gears)
  • Sony London's new IP (apparently a Hero Shooter with magic and melee combat)
Plus also continue having all the other top 3rd party shooters.

MAG, SOCOM, Warhawk, The Getaway, Planetside and Everquest for example had so much potential yet Sony decided to simply let 3rd parties fill the void.

How Sony will be regretting disbanding Zipper Interactive and Selling Sony Online Entertainment.
Sony got rid of them due to really poor performance and because they didn't see potential there. If some day they ever see potential in MAG, SOCOM, Warhawk or The Getaway they'll resurrect these IPs.

Nintendo had to learn the hard way and are now completely self sufficient.

Now is Sonys turn.

Sony have a massive loyal fanbase bigger than Nintendo and Xbox.

They survived. So will PlayStation.

Keep the faith.
Sony is the market leader and will continue being it, they will be more than fine.

They have a strategy that makes sense that will help them grow in every single area that will help them continue growing their revenue, profits and catalog by releasing more traditional console games that their current fans like plus also reaching new fans via shooters, GaaS, PC, mobile, movies and Asia.
To be clear, this list doesn't mean MS planned to buy all of them including Nintendo, Sony and AT&T.

This is list is only the top 100 mobile gaming publishers/developers merging the subsidiaries and I assume removing the Chinese ones. Appanie is the leading website to track performance of mobile games and developers.

So basically they made this list to see who are the key actors in mobile gaming, as a first early investigation to see if they could identify a top player who could fit and could be open to sell.

Supercell is owned by Tencent, Take 2 got Zynga, Playrix is too casual, Playtika and Aristocrat make gambling casino stuff and then LINE, Netmarble, NC Soft, mixi, CyberAgent, Nexon, Dena or Sea Limited are pretty much focused on Asia only and/or too tied to rival Asia focused platforms.

Then there's Activision, Bandai Namco, Sony, Nintendo, EA, Konami, AT&T/WB, Sega or Square Enix didn't want to sell, at least to MS. Until some day Kotick changed his mind when they got all that bad PR due to the harassment accusations that was tanking their stocks and a couple days after the shit hit the fan he got a call from Phil Spencer to 'reevalute their relationship with Activision'.
 
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flaccidsnake

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All these acquisitions put a lid on hardware innovation also. If doesn't make sense to go balls to the wall with cutting edge hardware when the most technically advanced teams are on one or the other 1st party. You have to meet the needs of multiplatform development, which is increasingly the realm of smaller devs. Franchises like Battlefield or the Respawn Jedi games are bit isolated now.
 

Alabtrosmyster

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26 Jun 2022
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Not loyal then if you ask me.

The PS1 and PS2 didn’t need COD, Doom to be successful.
Nope, I see no point in loyalty for this kind of thing... You can be loyal to family and friends (in that order), but corporations that provide products only get my respect (at best) and my money when it makes sense to me.

So that being said, a great portion of my gaming life has been spent on Sony's PlayStations/games and I'm grateful for them to exist because if all we had was MS and Nintendo I don't know if I would even have a console at this point in time.
 
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Yobo

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Nintendo also makes double the profit.

We are talking strictly Software here.

Nintendo is self sufficient in terms of revenue and profit.

Sony is not.
Profits great for lining their coffers for lean times. Ultimately a company like Sony will take the bigger cash flow over the bigger margins.

Nintendo self sufficiency is a double edged sword. They can easily hit a flop like WiiU which would be disastrous, especially in this era where they don't have a handheld backing them up. And they lack the solid third party relations to see them through that. Even Xbox is better at maintaining third party relations