Tom Henderson - The PlayStation Portal was very successful and they are paying very close attention to the current handheld market

ToTTenTranz

Veteran
Icon Extra
4 Aug 2023
1,532
1,601
So what kind of portable do you want?
Full PS5 games dont need to be compromised

I'm sorry but I don't want the same situation as the Series S, where games need either to be botchered to run on it or massive resources need to be spent in order to scale the game back enough to run on it.

The rumors say Switch 2 is barely a PS4 Pro tech wise. You want SIE to gimp all their games in order to support the portable?


Above PS5 performance will already be on the Strix Halo SoC, probably at 30-40W TDP.

With LPDDR6 coming in late 2024 with the same speeds as PS5's GDDR6 (14Gbps), my guess is AMD and TSMC are probably going to be able to build a ~3nm SoC + 256bit LPDDR6 of running PS5 code at full speed in late 2025 / early 2026, with a ~20W TDP.

Now 20W is definitely way above what could fit into a Vita or even a Switch, but it would fit a heavier and more expensive solution within the Steam Deck or ROG Ally form factor.



I agree that making yet another hardware target that is worse than the current one would be a shot in the foot, and Sony themselves would probably leave it to die anyway. Other than what they have with the Portal, the only way they have to leverage the global interest for gaming handhelds would be to get it to run PS5 code so that they don't need to put any software development effort into it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kokoloko
24 Jun 2022
3,954
6,894
I think what you'll get is a Sony handheld PC instead released once they ported to PC most of the PS4 and PS5 (2+ years old in case of non-GaaS) titles they consider have potential to sell enough there.

Make sure they'll feature crossplay, cloud saves and shared trophies and friendlist, and maybe even crossbuy at least for some games.

I think it would make sense to release it a couple years after the PS6 (so in late 2029/early 2030), acting as next gen PS Player too, not only as standalone portable. So in that case would get also get the PC version of the PS6 games.

This is a pretty bad idea. The point of a new PS portable should be to drive engagement and sales within the PlayStation hardware ecosystem, not compete against other PlayStation hardware within that ecosystem. A PS portable PC would be running Windows (most likely) or possibly Steam OS, neither of which are the FreeBSD-based OS PS consoles use.

Moreover, since SIE don't have a storefront on PC, the crossbuy you speak of would be limited to SIE-published games or, require them to also build a PC storefront and somehow get console 3P partners to publish onto their PC storefront for that 3P revenue on PC. Good luck on that front; Epic will be the first to tell about how difficult getting that support naturally actually is in a post-Steam world.

A PS PC handheld doesn't give nearly as much reason to buy a PS6 as a PS handheld running on PS6's OS does.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Umar and Kokoloko

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
I'm sorry but I don't want the same situation as the Series S, where games need either to be botchered to run on it or massive resources need to be spent in order to scale the game back enough to run on it.

The rumors say Switch 2 is barely a PS4 Pro tech wise. You want SIE to gimp all their games in order to support the portable?

They will have to do something like Steameck, PC portable etc/ Games will be downscaled like they play on Steamdeck or lower end PC.
Drop PS games to 900p 30fps and lower graphics for portable PS5 games and PS4 games should run fine
 

voke

Veteran
10 Jan 2023
2,559
3,305
I'd just like some type of dongle that helps with latency/resolution (although it works fine as is), also for us stream games from the cloud. Having my entire library available is much nicer than having a whole separate platforms. Also don't want to see Sony splitting resources again, PSVR2 hopefully is their last attempt.
 

arvfab

Slayer of Colossi
23 Jun 2022
3,219
4,443
Are SIE gimping their games when their games are playable on steamdeck?

Yes, if they consider Steam Deck from the beginning of development, they are gimping their games.

How long until their games won't be able to run on it or they won't care enough to make them run on it with some effort?

What happens once the PS6 releases? Would they stop supporting the handheld or do you want for another half-gen long cross-gen period?

How about nixxes get put to work on those ports for this sony handheld as they galdly got rift apart stemdeck verified.

How about nixxes starts doing something meaningful like porting PS3 games to PS5?



They will have to do something like Steameck, PC portable etc/ Games will be downscaled like they play on Steamdeck or lower end PC.
Drop PS games to 900p 30fps and lower graphics for portable PS5 games and PS4 games should run fine

See above. What happens if a downscale is not enough? Will they be allowed to not release on it? Or will we have similar situations like the ones we are seeing with the Series S?
 
OP
OP
FatKaz

FatKaz

Veteran
16 Jul 2022
2,250
4,244
Yes, if they consider Steam Deck from the beginning of development, they are gimping their games.
Well they aren't considering steamdeck at the begginning of their development and some of their games run on a steamdeck with scaled down settings
🤷‍♂️
How long until their games won't be able to run on it or they won't care enough to make them run on it with some effort?
Like i said they can leverage teams like nixxes to make it happen. If it's not possible then it can work like the portal for those games.

No need for comprises. A shit ton of people love the steamdeck even though it can't play every game, but that's not stopping people loving that device.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kokoloko

Yurinka

Veteran
VIP
21 Jun 2022
7,715
6,602
This is a pretty bad idea. The point of a new PS portable should be to drive engagement and sales within the PlayStation hardware ecosystem, not compete against other PlayStation hardware within that ecosystem. A PS portable PC would be running Windows (most likely) or possibly Steam OS, neither of which are the FreeBSD-based OS PS consoles use.

Moreover, since SIE don't have a storefront on PC, the crossbuy you speak of would be limited to SIE-published games or, require them to also build a PC storefront and somehow get console 3P partners to publish onto their PC storefront for that 3P revenue on PC. Good luck on that front; Epic will be the first to tell about how difficult getting that support naturally actually is in a post-Steam world.

A PS PC handheld doesn't give nearly as much reason to buy a PS6 as a PS handheld running on PS6's OS does.
Both a PS PC handheld and a PS portable console would "compete" against their PS home console.

The difference would be that a PS portable console would require resources to make its own ports and games, so it would reduce the current output of home console and PC ports. That wouldn't happen with a PS PC handheld because it would just run the PC games and emulate the PS classics. As a result, as happened in Vita, the portable console would get little support and catalog, while a PC handhelds have a giant catalog.

I assume that before releasing that PS PC handheld they'd release their PSN PC storefront (which seems to be already in the works). I assume it would feature both 1st and 3rd party games, and that all of them would be crossbuy with their home console. So you buy a game once in PSN and if available you can play it both in PS home console and PC (desktop/laptop/handheld), because I think than to add this to the cloud cross-saves, cross-play, shared trophies, shared friendlist is the only way they have to compete seriously against Steam on PC.

For their PC handheld they can do the same than for their home consoles: use PC hardware running on a FreeBSD Unix/Linux (case of Switch, PS3, PS4, PS5) but adding the Proton (also has BSD license and LGPL, Sony could use it for free) layer on top as SteamOS (which is open source Linux/Unix based, Sony can get what they want) to run the Windows games there as Steamdeck does.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
This is a pretty bad idea. The point of a new PS portable should be to drive engagement and sales within the PlayStation hardware ecosystem, not compete against other PlayStation hardware within that ecosystem. A PS portable PC would be running Windows (most likely) or possibly Steam OS, neither of which are the FreeBSD-based OS PS consoles use.

Moreover, since SIE don't have a storefront on PC, the crossbuy you speak of would be limited to SIE-published games or, require them to also build a PC storefront and somehow get console 3P partners to publish onto their PC storefront for that 3P revenue on PC. Good luck on that front; Epic will be the first to tell about how difficult getting that support naturally actually is in a post-Steam world.

A PS PC handheld doesn't give nearly as much reason to buy a PS6 as a PS handheld running on PS6's OS does.

Can they make a device that can play 3rd party stuff like Steamdeck without having to have a PC store front etc? Im not really for the PC store thing anymore.

And then just downscale their 1st party stuff, 900p, 30fps, low setting etc?
It will just be like how they introduced different modes when they brought PS4 Pro into market and now games have performance settings etc.

A dedicated portable is out of the question because of studio shortage.
PS4 portable.. PS4 is gonna be over 11-12 years old by the time this thing comes out. Ive played hundreds fo hours into PS4, what is left

Surely they can find a way to play modern games like Steamdeck 1-2 and probably Switch 2 will be doing to some extent. It cant be a only Sony cant do this thing lol
 

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
Are SIE gimping their games when their games are playable on steamdeck?

How about nixxes get put to work on those ports for this sony handheld as they galdly got rift apart stemdeck verified.

Rift apart is one of the technically impressive SIE games.

Main team works on their vision to the fullest, and nixxes make there asses worthwhile for the ps fanbase and do scaled down ports.

Yes this. Get these PC porting team/s working on portables instead
 
  • they're_right_you_know
Reactions: FatKaz

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
Both a PS PC handheld and a PS portable console would "compete" against their PS home console.

But it would keep it in the same ecosystem. The games being bought on either go to Sony via PSN.
I would buy both, but some might just one or the other but the games being bought all go to Sony.

A PSP would be competition for Steamdeck and Switch 2. Just like there companies are competition for Playstation.
 
24 Jun 2022
3,954
6,894
Both a PS PC handheld and a PS portable console would "compete" against their PS home console.

The difference would be that a PS portable console would require resources to make its own ports and games, so it would reduce the current output of home console and PC ports. That wouldn't happen with a PS PC handheld because it would just run the PC games and emulate the PS classics. As a result, as happened in Vita, the portable console would get little support and catalog, while a PC handhelds have a giant catalog.

This only assumes SIE take one path (a suboptimal one) in terms of approach. If other rumors are correct, this handheld won't be a thing until around PS6's launch. If SIE have Mark Cerny and his team develop technologies which offload as much of the asset scaling and optimization tasks off developers as possible, the amount of money and resources needed to get PS games running on such a handheld reduces to a level far below the costs of developing PC ports of their games in the first place.

This also means whatever that technology is (advanced PSSR being one component) would be shared between the handheld and PS6; since the PS6 won't be running Windows or Steam OS, it'd be assumed the tech would be optimized for the PS6's OS. Therefore it makes the most sense for the PS handheld to utilize the same OS if it is using that same shared technology.

We are not talking about a PSP or Vita situation where a new PS handheld has its own library of titles; those days are over. But being able to natively play PS4 & PS5 games, downscaled PS6 games (using smart technologies that remove most of the work from developers) and legacy PS games is a much better choice than something that plays PC versions of PS games which would 1: run on an OS different from the PS6 and 2: leverage software out-of-ecosystem to propel its value proposition in a way that directly undercuts SIE's own PlayStation consoles through much less synergy.

These are the biggest reasons why a PS PC handheld makes little business sense; the only way it actually works is if the PS6 is also "basically" a PC running Windows or Steam OS. The next Xbox basically being a PC makes sense for Microsoft; it doesn't make sense for Sony/SIE.

I assume that before releasing that PS PC handheld they'd release their PSN PC storefront (which seems to be already in the works). I assume it would feature both 1st and 3rd party games, and that all of them would be crossbuy with their home console. So you buy a game once in PSN and if available you can play it both in PS home console and PC (desktop/laptop/handheld), because I think than to add this to the cloud cross-saves, cross-play, shared trophies, shared friendlist is the only way they have to compete seriously against Steam on PC.

There is no logical reason for SIE to rush for a PC storefront within the next 4-5 years unless they want to risk eroding value proposition for hardcore & core enthusiast early adopters to buy the next PlayStation console. Which will happen, as we saw similar occur with Xbox this generation. The only reason the collapse in Xbox console sales didn't happen sooner than it did this gen are because:

1: COVID/pandemic lockdowns/economic recession (ironically benefiting Series S)

2: PS5 & PS4 shortages during pandemic (greatly benefiting Series S, partially benefiting Series X)

3: MS 3P acquisitions of Zenimax & ABK (galvanizing the core Xbox fanbase, pumping some stock value into Xbox and keeping them in news cycles)

So, who are we expecting SIE to acquire in terms of major 3P publishers around PS6's launch? What pandemic are we expecting to see happen? Will the Switch 2 suffer from rampant shortages by the time PS6 is ready? Will PS5 stop being manufactured around then? Because any reality where there's a PC storefront prior to PS6's launch, just hurts the adoption rate of PS6 among a segment of would-be early adopters unless some really big shit is happening around the brand or wider society to offset it and drive those hardware sales.

In specific to the PC PS storefront; without creative incentives there is little reason for 3P to prioritize putting their games on it when they already know storefronts like Steam will account for the vast majority of their PC sales. The probability of SIE doing on PC what Epic have been unable to do for several years, in a leapfrog way of only a year or two, is extremely low. And, it probably would come at the expense of some lack of focus on the console front, eroding things there further.

Preferably, there's no need for a PS PC storefront until nearing the end of the PS6 generation, which is close to or little over a decade from now. If anything, they should probably consider region-specific PC ports for markets like China via WeGame, if they feel that could complement console sales in such regions, particularly since console is still a very small market in places like China.

For their PC handheld they can do the same than for their home consoles: use PC hardware running on a FreeBSD Unix/Linux (case of Switch, PS3, PS4, PS5) but adding the Proton (also has BSD license and LGPL, Sony could use it for free) layer on top as SteamOS (which is open source Linux/Unix based, Sony can get what they want) to run the Windows games there as Steamdeck does.

And again this just creates far more value proposition for the PC handheld than their own console; you won't see SIE add Proton to PS5 or PS6 anytime soon for Steam OS or Windows emulation compatibility, for example.

A move like you suggest just drives down early adoption of PS consoles, and SIE losing a portion of high-ARPU hardcore/core enthusiasts to a platform where they will see less cuts from software revenue because of easy, open access to storefront alternatives.

And in that scenario I doubt they'd get enough mainstream & casual or new customers on console to make up the difference, especially if pricing patterns for console mirror what they have been this gen thus far.
 

Yurinka

Veteran
VIP
21 Jun 2022
7,715
6,602
This only assumes SIE take one path (a suboptimal one) in terms of approach. If other rumors are correct, this handheld won't be a thing until around PS6's launch. If SIE have Mark Cerny and his team develop technologies which offload as much of the asset scaling and optimization tasks off developers as possible, the amount of money and resources needed to get PS games running on such a handheld reduces to a level far below the costs of developing PC ports of their games in the first place.
If it would be a PC handheld there wouldn't be porting costs because like Steamdeck and similar it would just run PC games.

If it would be a portable console it would require to make ports for it, just like in Vita or Switch.

This also means whatever that technology is (advanced PSSR being one component) would be shared between the handheld and PS6; since the PS6 won't be running Windows or Steam OS, it'd be assumed the tech would be optimized for the PS6's OS. Therefore it makes the most sense for the PS handheld to utilize the same OS if it is using that same shared technology.
PSSR is supposed to be just a scaling method like DLSS or FRS. It will run in all devices their devs want it to run it.

We are not talking about a PSP or Vita situation where a new PS handheld has its own library of titles; those days are over. But being able to natively play PS4 & PS5 games,
It won't be able to natively run PS4 & PS5 games unless it has the same exact hardware, wattage etc, which can't be fit into a handheld specially at a decent pricing and with a decent battery.

But to run the PC ports of PS4/PS5 (or potential PS6) games is doable in a PC handheld, just choosing the proper PC game menu settings as in Steamdeck and similar.

Portable PS5 is nowadays a fantasy, a PC handheld is something that already exists that doesn't require crazy R&D costs.

1: run on an OS different from the PS6 and 2: leverage software out-of-ecosystem to propel its value proposition in a way that directly undercuts SIE's own PlayStation consoles through much less synergy.
The synergy of a single, combined PSN for both console and PC that can be added to both their PS home console and PC desktop/laptop/handheld is way better than having a separate PSN for the home console, another one for their portable console and another one for PC.

the only way it actually works is if the PS6 is also "basically" a PC running Windows or Steam OS.
The PC handheld would be basically a custom PC running a custom Unix/Linux. Just like PS4 and PS5.

There is no logical reason for SIE to rush for a PC storefront within the next 4-5 years
Yes, there's the logical reason of wanting to grow their revenue, profit and userbase. Even more than the one SIE experienced since they did their current PC push.

Because any reality where there's a PC storefront prior to PS6's launch, just hurts the adoption rate of PS6 among a segment of would-be early adopters unless some really big shit is happening around the brand or wider society to offset it and drive those hardware sales.
Their PC is not negatively affecting their console strategy now that they are selling their games on Steam. If something, it's the opposite: their active userbase in consolie is higher than ever and they have around half of their PS5 userbase who are new users, are more engaged than ever and spend on average more money than ever.

So will affect even less if the games bought in PSN work in both PC and PS specially if they have crossbuy. In fact, would attract more PC users to PS because if they already bought some Sony games on the PC PSN store they'll already would have that library on console, something that would make some people prefer to buy the games on PSN than in Steam.
 
24 Jun 2022
3,954
6,894
Can they make a device that can play 3rd party stuff like Steamdeck without having to have a PC store front etc? Im not really for the PC store thing anymore.

And then just downscale their 1st party stuff, 900p, 30fps, low setting etc?
It will just be like how they introduced different modes when they brought PS4 Pro into market and now games have performance settings etc.

A dedicated portable is out of the question because of studio shortage.
PS4 portable.. PS4 is gonna be over 11-12 years old by the time this thing comes out. Ive played hundreds fo hours into PS4, what is left

Surely they can find a way to play modern games like Steamdeck 1-2 and probably Switch 2 will be doing to some extent. It cant be a only Sony cant do this thing lol

I think they can, but it's going to require the following two things:

1: Advanced technology like PSSR but geared towards auto-scaling assets up & down (mesh geometry, LOD settings etc.) using intelligent feedback systems (ways of reading framebuffer states to determine asset quality levels & culling for future frames, meta data as parameters by devs to configure and control gathering of feedback data etc.)​
2: PS6 and PS handheld sharing said advanced technologies in their architectures.​

We don't know what the PS6's specs are going to be. But a PS portable that is basically a paired down PS6 leveraging aforementioned technologies and designed well should be able to play PS6 games at acceptable settings downscaled with very little effort from the devs/programmers to handle optimizations. That way they don't have to "consider" scoping their game for a PS portable; they can scope it for PS6 or whatever and technologies in the portable simply scale assets, quality & performance to run a profile of the game on the portable.

However I'm still assuming said portable will probably need to be around base PS5 level of performance, or close to it, as you'd want it to be able to natively play PS5 games no problem. Whether that's docked or undocked (likely docked) is up for SIE to figure out. Some of this may seem like a tall order today, but I'm not expecting this hypothetical handheld to release until around PS6, which is still at least 4 years away.

That's a lot of time to nail down the design and take advantage of technologies available by then to make something like this, that can comfortably hit a $399 (maybe $499) price point.
 
  • brain
Reactions: Kokoloko

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
I think they can, but it's going to require the following two things:

1: Advanced technology like PSSR but geared towards auto-scaling assets up & down (mesh geometry, LOD settings etc.) using intelligent feedback systems (ways of reading framebuffer states to determine asset quality levels & culling for future frames, meta data as parameters by devs to configure and control gathering of feedback data etc.)​
2: PS6 and PS handheld sharing said advanced technologies in their architectures.​

We don't know what the PS6's specs are going to be. But a PS portable that is basically a paired down PS6 leveraging aforementioned technologies and designed well should be able to play PS6 games at acceptable settings downscaled with very little effort from the devs/programmers to handle optimizations. That way they don't have to "consider" scoping their game for a PS portable; they can scope it for PS6 or whatever and technologies in the portable simply scale assets, quality & performance to run a profile of the game on the portable.

However I'm still assuming said portable will probably need to be around base PS5 level of performance, or close to it, as you'd want it to be able to natively play PS5 games no problem. Whether that's docked or undocked (likely docked) is up for SIE to figure out. Some of this may seem like a tall order today, but I'm not expecting this hypothetical handheld to release until around PS6, which is still at least 4 years away.

That's a lot of time to nail down the design and take advantage of technologies available by then to make something like this, that can comfortably hit a $399 (maybe $499) price point.

With Switch 2 coming in 2025, Steamdeck 2 proabbably 2026/27? I could see Sony waiting to do this in 2027 with PS6.

Shame they didnt do anything to come with a PS5 Pro, 2 years of Swtich 2 on the market could make it harder for PSP3?
 

ToTTenTranz

Veteran
Icon Extra
4 Aug 2023
1,532
1,601
With Switch 2 coming in 2025, Steamdeck 2 proabbably 2026/27? I could see Sony waiting to do this in 2027 with PS6.

Shame they didnt do anything to come with a PS5 Pro, 2 years of Swtich 2 on the market could make it harder for PSP3?


I don't see the Steam Deck's successor coming later than 2026. IMO it's probably coming in late 2025 or early 2026.
Releasing in Q1 2026 would give it a 4 year distance between the consoles and I think that's reasonable enough.


At this point, I wonder if Sony's plans for handheld aren't to simply make the PS6 a hybrid. Get a handheld that runs the games at 720p which then the dock has a discrete GPU to play the same games at 4K.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kokoloko

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,884
4,625
I don't see the Steam Deck's successor coming later than 2026. IMO it's probably coming in late 2025 or early 2026.
Releasing in Q1 2026 would give it a 4 year distance between the consoles and I think that's reasonable enough.


At this point, I wonder if Sony's plans for handheld aren't to simply make the PS6 a hybrid. Get a handheld that runs the games at 720p which then the dock has a discrete GPU to play the same games at 4K.

Agree about Steamdeck Successor.

I doubt Sony would do a Nintendo. They rule the Console market, they dont need to do a Hybrid like Nintendo. Nintendo did it to save there ass and had no choice, they couldnt make another console. Handheld was there best option and the tech gave them the opportunity to do a Wii u powered thing which was already under powered at the time.