Eurogamer Spec Analysis: PlayStation 5 Pro - the most powerful console yet |UP| 4/1 How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?

[historia]

Hmm from what I read Apple, Nvidia have priorities in 3nm TMSC due to their volumn. AMD may get some distribution thanks to volumn.

But I highly doubt we gonna get a new machine from N3 TSMC all the way until 2027. By then new node would need some thing more advanced that FINFet, which gonna be more expensive. Generatational gain cannot be achieved until 2028 or even 2029 I reckoned.
80nm ->28nm, 28nm -> 7nm, 7nm -> "1nm"

 

[Systemshock2023]

On the purple place there's rumours of a potential delay through late 2025 early 2026... wtf.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Games are generally bound by single threaded cpu performance.

Games are very rarely CPU bound by Zen2's single threaded performance below 60 FPS.

In the very rare cases that they are, it's always an optimization problem and not a hardware limitation problem.

The problem was DigitalFoundry assuming from the get go that the PS5's 8-core Zen2 isn't capable of running the game at 60FPS "because it simulates a city".

Well yes it simulates a city... and so does GTA V which also runs at 60FPS on the PS5. And so does Watch Dogs Legion that actually tracks a whole activity schedule for every damn NPC that you encounter in the game.

It's not like "simulating a city" is something new or extraordinary for a modern CPU.


It looks like they base all their "knowledge" of console CPU performance on Baldur's Gate in Act 3 and Gotham Knights, conveniently forgetting that these are outliers for bad optimization and there are loads of GTA-esque games doing 60FPS on the PS5 and SeriesX.

 

[historia]

PS4 Pro have a performance gain of 60-70% percentage over PS4 for like 33% more.
Translated to performance mode that is like 45-50 FPS over 30 and on fidelity that is 1440p CBR to 4K with improvements to fidelity.

I think PS5 Pro could achieve more consider base performance gain 45%, not taken account the new ML upscaling solution and big gain in Ray Tracing. I think probably we will see more than 100% performance gain with ML upscaling and improvement in Ray Tracing.

 

[Shmunter]

Am however concerned with lazy code swamping the cpu for no good reason. Looking at Dragons Dogma situation I’m left scratching my head - shit would likely run on a Jaguar with a poofteenth of the processing power last Gen with proper consideration. lazy, and unoptimised.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Am however concerned with lazy code swamping the cpu for no good reason. Looking at Dragons Dogma situation I’m left scratching my head - shit would likely run on a Jaguar with a poofteenth of the processing power last Gen with proper consideration. lazy, and unoptimised.

Yeah some of these devs are like "OK good better hardware they can brute force it" and optimize shit.

 

[ethomaz]

Yeah some of these devs are like "OK good better hardware they can brute force it" and optimize shit.

That is what happens with PC games.

 

[Gamernyc78]

...

 

[Gamernyc78]

Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?​

 

[Gediminas]

Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?​

View attachment 4683

it is easy. m$ is not in business in creativity, they are in business to copy and then using its money push out the competition even with inferior copy paste version.

 

[Alabtrosmyster]

Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?​

View attachment 4683

Ms did not do machine learning, they got a contract with Open AI (essentially killed the open side).... They have tons of processing power and resources to make AI viable, which is extremely important.

There are tons of other actors, the baseline algorithms existed back in the 80s and the biggest advance happened in training techniques, memory, computing, etc.

Obviously, you still need serious brainpower to do actual R&D in this field.

Also, AI upscaling is just an upscaling technique, it's really nice, but it's a bonus and other upscaling techniques do the work.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Microsoft has alot of money, connections, etc to do alot of things yet ends up playing second fiddle to Sony almost every time just like Cloud Streaming.

 

[Umar]

Cant believe its been almost 8 years since the Ps4 Pro reveal

 

[Gamernyc78]

Cant believe its been almost 8 years since the Ps4 Pro reveal

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Digital Foundry-PS5 Pro: How Did Sony Beat Microsoft In Machine Learning For Consoles?​

Sony beat Microsoft in Machine Learning for Consoles by doing something, which is more than the nothing that Microsoft did on their end.
Microsoft announced ML capabilities for upscaling back in 2020 and made a big fuss about having DP4a capabilities (8x throughput on UINT4, ~96 TOPs on SeriesX) for that end, after which they failed to release anything at all. Not even a demo or a trailer, and the Xbox team loves their tech demos and trailers (just look at Coalition's show-off in early 2021 around variable rate shading for a game that still doesn't even have a release year).

Last month they announced DirectSR which is basically a tool to implement FSR, XeSS and DLSS in DX12 games, once again showing they have nothing of their own.
It could be that they saw open source initiatives like FSR2 and Intel's XeSS DP4a approach and decided their own efforts weren't worth pursuing, but in the end it's just another episode of Microsoft announcing big plans about something and then forgetting they ever mentioned it. Like the Xbox One using cloud processing or the One X having big plans for VR.



Unlike the DF team's thoughts, I don't think this has anything to do with performance either. They seem to be convinced that DLSS takes a massive toll on Nvidia's tensor cores but it really doesn't. It looks like the Series X could do run DLSS2 pretty fine (and Nvidia does have a compute shader version of it running on the Quadro T series, but ssshhh).

Ms did not do machine learning, they got a contract with Open AI (essentially killed the open side).... They have tons of processing power and resources to make AI viable, which is extremely important.

Pretty sure they're talking about Microsoft's announcements back in 2020 regarding ML-based upscaling that was going to make it so much faster than the PS5 (according to insiders).

 

[Gamernyc78]

Playstation is a games company before anything and just know what they are doing. They have always pushed advancement and innovation in gaming hence still sticking with PSVR.

We've heard from back in the days omggg Microsoft is a huge computer, software, cloud etc company so Thyll do better...

Guess what?

Cloud came out after and isn't better than PS Now

Dx12 didn't give Xbox the edge as a matter of fact Sony's apis were just as good or better.

Xbox didn't do motion controls better

I mean the list goes on.

 

[Alabtrosmyster]

Pretty sure they're talking about Microsoft's announcements back in 2020 regarding ML-based upscaling that was going to make it so much faster than the PS5 (according to insiders).

Oh crap, I remember all the Sony has no AI FUB back then.. that might have been from this and some DF comment.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Sony beat Microsoft in Machine Learning for Consoles by doing something, which is more than the nothing that Microsoft did on their end.
Microsoft announced ML capabilities for upscaling back in 2020 and made a big fuss about having DP4a capabilities (8x throughput on UINT4, ~96 TOPs on SeriesX) for that end, after which they failed to release anything at all. Not even a demo or a trailer, and the Xbox team loves their tech demos and trailers (just look at Coalition's show-off in early 2021 around variable rate shading for a game that still doesn't even have a release year).

Last month they announced DirectSR which is basically a tool to implement FSR, XeSS and DLSS in DX12 games, once again showing they have nothing of their own.
It could be that they saw open source initiatives like FSR2 and Intel's XeSS DP4a approach and decided their own efforts weren't worth pursuing, but in the end it's just another episode of Microsoft announcing big plans about something and then forgetting they ever mentioned it. Like the Xbox One using cloud processing or the One X having big plans for VR.



Unlike the DF team's thoughts, I don't think this has anything to do with performance either. They seem to be convinced that DLSS takes a massive toll on Nvidia's tensor cores but it really doesn't. It looks like the Series X could do run DLSS2 pretty fine (and Nvidia does have a compute shader version of it running on the Quadro T series, but ssshhh).




Pretty sure they're talking about Microsoft's announcements back in 2020 regarding ML-based upscaling that was going to make it so much faster than the PS5 (according to insiders).

Add it to the list of things MS promised and never deliver on, AR, VR support, RT Minecraft and so on.

 

[Entropi]

I remember there was a lot of talk about AI in the XsX back in 2020. Like everything else, it was all smoke and mirrors.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Digital Foundry: Could PlayStation 5 Pro Handle Path-Traced Games?​