FH5: Hot Wheels DLC -- Why isn't Xbox releasing DLCs on Gamepass day one?

[Sircaw]

Clearly they want you to buy their DLC, and then when they inevitably pull the base game off GamePass when the next FH is released, they hope you'll buy the base game again, as that's the only way you'll be able to play the DLC again that you previously bought!

That is pretty fucking nefarious if that is their plan.

 

[Sircaw]

Calling in @adamsapple, whats your take on this, your a my blood flows green guy, what do you think?

 

[DonFerrari]

Clearly they want you to buy their DLC, and then when they inevitably pull the base game off GamePass when the next FH is released, they hope you'll buy the base game again, as that's the only way you'll be able to play the DLC again that you previously bought!

Aside from Horizon 3, which was pulled because of licensing, what first party game has been pulled from the service?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Xbox just shoots itself in the foot.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Phil Spencer has been very clear about this. Gamepass is just one of several pillars of Xbox. Business wise, it makes total sense. Hook people on games via a cheap entry point and then sell them DLC for those games. This is also one of the things that makes Gamepass viable (the other is Microsoft owning Azure).

Exactly.

Beyond that though they do expect a big push from cloud, which is currently linked to Gamepass. But we may see that separate, as the end goal is to be able to play any game you "own" in the cloud, not just those on the Gamepass sub. The problem is that MS needs to make deals to get games to even show up in the cloud, as that wasn't part of the "deal" for devs to release on Xbox.

My guess is at some point MS will change their "Xbox developer" contract to include that the games will be available on the cloud, and they'll do that at the point they separate "xcloud" from "Gamepass" (aka it's available w/o anyone paying a fee.)

Sub revenue is a big deal too.. but this weird black and white thinking that it's all Xbox cares about is flawed.

The higher ups at MS though are clearly being sold a vision of a cloud future with a much bigger customer base than they currently have though.

 

[Themaskedcrag]

Aside from Horizon 3, which was pulled because of licensing, what first party game has been pulled from the service?

None that I know of, they haven't said they won't though, and if you read the GamePass contract, games can leave at any time, whether first party or not. They will start pulling older stuff, once they actually have some new first party content !

 

[adamsapple]

Calling in @adamsapple, whats your take on this, your a my blood flows green guy, what do you think?

There is no precedent for them releasing paid DLC on game pass (Hivebusters is the only literal exception) so this is nothing but manufactured concern ™

If they start putting out paid DLC on service, the next point of concern raised will be why MS doesn't just put all third party games on the service for GP subscribers as well since 'that's what their end goal is to get more people on GP'.

You see how the wheel spins ?

 

[Sircaw]

There is no precedent for them releasing paid DLC on game pass (Hivebusters is the only literal exception) so this is nothing but manufactured concern ™

As far as i remember, the concern was coming from people that are subscribed to game pass as a service, and in said users wanting to play the DLC of the game, so it's not really manufactured per se, it's a real issue that some people are having.

 

[adamsapple]

As far as i remember, the concern was coming from people that are subscribed to game pass as a service, and in said users wanting to play the DLC of thegame, so it's not really manufactured per se, its real.

The concern can come from anyone, but that doesn't mean it isn't manufactured. Especially as I mentioned, there has been no precedent for it. If it were something that has been done since the inception of the series, and not in this case, then we're all entitled to be outraged about it. But this ain't it.


Just to break down some of OP's points.

If the argument is:

• "Because Xbox needs to make money by selling DLCs at retail" -- Doesn't that signify that Gamepass doesn't and won't make enough money? And in that case, shouldn't all first-party games follow the non-GP model if that's more profitable?

No, this doesn't signify anything and this is just the OP making assumptions. Game Pass only promises first party games on day 1, it never promised additional paid content for them as well. That is entirely up to MS's discretion.

• "Because retail sales are more important than growing subs" -- Does this mean that betting on a subscription model is inherently flawed?

Betting on subscription model as the only way of operating a platform, for now, is flawed.

But none of the three big console manufacturers are doing that, nor have they said that there are any plans to do that in the coming year(s).

• "DLCs won't help grow Gamepass." -- If the entire Xbox model and future is based on Gamepass, why even make DLCs then?

Because DLC is made within the existing framework of a game that's already out, and it's generally put out relatively quick after a game releases in most cases.

They could very well have held onto it for the next game, but that would be so many number of years in the future. By then priorities and concepts could and would have shifted so drastically that it may not make sense to revisit that one idea about hotwheels.

 

[Sircaw]

The concern can come from anyone, but that doesn't mean it isn't manufactured. Especially as I mentioned, there has been no precedent for it. If it were something that has been done since the inception of the series, and not in this case, then we're all entitled to be outraged about it. But this ain't it.


Just to break down some of OP's points.




No, this doesn't signify anything and this is just the OP making assumptions. Game Pass only promises first party games on day 1, it never promised additional paid content for them as well. That is entirely up to MS's discretion.




Betting on subscription model as the only way of operating a platform, for now, is flawed.

But none of the three big console manufacturers are doing that, nor have they said that there are any plans to do that in the coming year(s).




Because DLC is made within the existing framework of a game that's already out, and it's generally put out relatively quick after a game releases in most cases.

They could very well have held onto it for the next game, but that would be so many number of years in the future. By then priorities and concepts could and would have shifted so drastically that it may not make sense to revisit that one idea about hotwheels.

but what about the millions of people that are subscribed to Gamepass, they should just suck it down yer?

 

[adamsapple]

but what about the millions of people that are subscribed to Gamepass, they should just suck it down yer?

Again, they were never even promised paid DLC in the first place, so they're free to continue as is. If this was a promised feature that was taken away from them, then I can see why current subscribers should be upset about it. But we're talking about something that has never been a part of the service in the first place.

The service gets dozens of games each month in bi-weekly drops, so the subscribers aren't short of content. First party output has been sparse in the calendar year 2022 but the E3 show had plenty of great games releasing in the next 12 months so folks should be good.

 

[Deleted member 223]

To make money. Touche!

 

[Heisenberg007]

The concern can come from anyone, but that doesn't mean it isn't manufactured. Especially as I mentioned, there has been no precedent for it. If it were something that has been done since the inception of the series, and not in this case, then we're all entitled to be outraged about it. But this ain't it.


Just to break down some of OP's points.




No, this doesn't signify anything and this is just the OP making assumptions. Game Pass only promises first party games on day 1, it never promised additional paid content for them as well. That is entirely up to MS's discretion.




Betting on subscription model as the only way of operating a platform, for now, is flawed.

But none of the three big console manufacturers are doing that, nor have they said that there are any plans to do that in the coming year(s).




Because DLC is made within the existing framework of a game that's already out, and it's generally put out relatively quick after a game releases in most cases.

They could very well have held onto it for the next game, but that would be so many number of years in the future. By then priorities and concepts could and would have shifted so drastically that it may not make sense to revisit that one idea about hotwheels.

I know MS never promised DLCs on GP. I never once implied that they did. Besides, that's not the argument.

I'm wondering why.

Why don't they release DLCs on GP? If they are willing to put all their day one releases on GP to "play the long game", why don't they do it with DLCs? Shouldn't putting more content grow their subscription faster, which is the endgame?

 

[Heisenberg007]

To make money. Touche!

Yes, but then why release all the other games on Gamepass day one if releasing games (DLCs, in this case) on Gamepass would minimize their revenue?

 

[adamsapple]

Why don't they release DLCs on GP? If they are willing to put all their day one releases on GP to "play the long game", why don't they do it with DLCs? Shouldn't putting more content grow their subscription faster, which is the endgame?

There could be a million different reasons for it. Contractor deals, third party app/plugin licenses used in games and/or agreements etc. We simply can't say definitively one way or the other.

But my point is we're asking questions about a policy that doesn't exist. It's a moot discussion that'll only lead to open ended arguments as there's no precedent to refer to, to answer it. For all we know, they may end up changing the stance in a years time, but there's no definitive answer to the why question right now.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Yes, but then why release all the other games on Gamepass day one if releasing games (DLCs, in this case) on Gamepass would minimize their revenue?

New games pull more subscribers than DLCs to said games. DLCs are only played by a small amount of gamers who liked the original game in the first place. So using DLCs to bolster revenue instead of trying to get more subscribers with them seems to be the correct choice.

 

[Heisenberg007]

There could be a million different reasons for it. Contractor deals, third party app/plugin licenses used in games and/or agreements etc. We simply can't say definitively one way or the other.

In first-party games those shouldn't be common issues.

But my point is we're asking questions about a policy that doesn't exist. It's a moot discussion that'll only lead to open ended arguments as there's no precedent to refer to, to answer it. For all we know, they may end up changing the stance in a years time, but there's no definitive answer to the why question right now.

I think it's a valid discussion. Just like speculating/wondering/asking if Sony should release first-party games day one on PS+ -- which was and continues to be discussed on forums, Twitter, and even big publisher websites such as Forbes, Bloomberg, GamesIndustry, etc.

 

[Heisenberg007]

New games pull more subscribers than DLCs to said games. DLCs are only played by a small amount of gamers who liked the original game in the first place. So using DLCs to bolster revenue instead of trying to get more subscribers with them seems to be the correct choice.

Good point but then, doesn't it go against the primary goal of Xbox, which is to increase GamePass subscription base?

If the primary goal is to increase Gamepass subs by using first-party content (hence the acquisition, first-party software growth, and GP day-one releases), why waste a first-party studio's time and resources on a DLC that won't contribute to that goal?

Had they saved the DLC resources and started working on Forza Horizon 6 instead to release it on Gamepass day one (6-10 months earlier than whatever the release date would be now in the future), that'd be much more in line with the business's overall goals.

 

[Heisenberg007]

@thicc_girls_are_teh_best thoughts on the topic?

 

[Vertigo]

Because gamespass subs in no way shape or form make the money needed to dev the games needed to sustain the service.

We knew this about Horizon when it launched. Because even tho the game was discounted on gamespass, the deluxe edition or season pass or whateverthefuck still requires purchase of dlc.

I don’t think Halo campaign expansion will be free either.

Base game sure. Everything else… Nope.