From software side quest design is absolutely atrocious. And I’m sick of people pretending they are good
- Thread starter SLB1904
- Start date
There is a difference between secret, not obvious and downright cryptic
To me after dark souls these quests were made as obtuse as possible for you tubers like vaatividya to make those 4 hours video essays about 3 lines of dialog made by a random npc.
It helps build the "mystique" on these souls like games. I previously enjoyed this but both it and I got old.
It helps build the "mystique" on these souls like games. I previously enjoyed this but both it and I got old.
They shouldn’t be missable in the open world design. Something akin to bomber’s notebook in Majora’s Mask for instance if they don’t want to telegraph but at least offer a way to document quests steps with vague riddles or info vs Ubisoft style “go here and pick up this clearly highlighted thing.”
Missing quests items and “true” endings in the souls game before Elden Ring wasn’t too bad since you would start a new game plus by the time dlc came along…. But Elden ring is too huge for this be as tolerable imo.
And the online aspect is a big part of this as well… it seems like they wanted player hints to be the way. But I hate getting grieved so I turn off PvP and online unless I need help in a boss fight I’m tired of playing over and over.
Missing quests items and “true” endings in the souls game before Elden Ring wasn’t too bad since you would start a new game plus by the time dlc came along…. But Elden ring is too huge for this be as tolerable imo.
And the online aspect is a big part of this as well… it seems like they wanted player hints to be the way. But I hate getting grieved so I turn off PvP and online unless I need help in a boss fight I’m tired of playing over and over.
Sales figures say otherwise. Or do you mean that you think its abysmal.. 2 different things.
I actually like how the side quests are hard to figure out - its part of the “game” for me vs a quest marker showing up. But yeah - some can be very annoying.
You can overcome most of the shortcomings of Fromsoft side quest design through a quick (albeit annoying) google search. With starfield, there's nothing you can do about the loading screens, awful characters, and procedurally generated garbage.
Feels like the main problems if we can call them that, are "I forgot what I encountered/heard" and "I didn't explore enough in this adventure game about exploring and fighting"
People have just become accustomed to games doing everything for them and not enjoying the actual journey.
The other thing typically left unsaid with regards to these quests is that they are kind of giving you reasons to play it again, but people are mad because they missed a "quest" (talking to an npc) and can't do a completionist run right out the gate I guess. It's fun to replay these games and find things you missed the first time.
Apples and oranges, we weren't talking about open world bloat we are talking about their "quest design", which expects you to want to explore and remember things.
I can agree that open world generally is simply adding bloat to a design, and I really don't enjoy bloat for bloat's sake. But I do enjoy the cohesive world they created in ER and it was very fun for me to fill out the map entirely, probably the most fun I have had exploring an RPG map tbh. There is plenty to reward exploration, interesting enemies and encounters and cool items, not sure what else you need really.
it's actually one of the things I enjoy most about Elden Ring vs Souls, the open world chill pacing. I can explore at my own pace and I'm not bottlenecked like I am in Souls games. The bottlenecks exist, but they are spaced out and personally I like the way they combined typical Fromsoft level design quirks with open world design.
Particularly in the DLC, the map itself is almost the legacy dungeon - getting around is much more sequenced and less open worldy. I actually dislike this a lot more than what the base game provides. Chill spaces in between the "legacy dungeons", with meaningful content. It's not just open fields - there are NPCs and tucked away crypts and unique encounters, items, crafting, etc. Rarely did I find myself on boring repeated treks to any place. I think the base game is one of the best designed game worlds I've ever played.
OP
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You can’t enjoy a journey knowingly you miss stuff by just progressing. I don’t have problem doing multiple playtroughs the problem is these quests are clearly designed to be completed in one play through I get that sometimes you have to make a choice between quests and that’s fine. But that’s not the case here. They are literally obtuse as hell. There isn’t really an excuse for this. And no one is talking about quest makers although I’m not against it. Why the volcano manner quest have marks on the map but everything else? It makes no sense whatsoever it’s poor quest design and there is absolutely no excuse for it
I think the "excuse" is that it makes the journey a checklist and you just open the map and go to the marker, as you probably did in that single example you provided. The rest of the game you naturally explored and probably found most of the important things if you were thorough, which is what they prefer. A thorough approach to experiencing the game, not taking shortcuts to complete a content checklist.
I think they could definitely work on making it less obtuse, so like maybe things like more clear verbal directions and hints, and a conversation log, but I do not need them to highlight what they want me to do next. The vague directional indicators at the sites of grace are as far as they want to go in that regard. Look over that way. Go explore.
No preteneding required, I'm just not a slow-witted pleb who causes Ubisoft game design to exist
This got me thinking actually about a perfect example. @Explosive Zombie once told me that he was genuinely surprised when he found the crater area, post Radahn, in the base game. Because the game didn't hold his hand to it and highlight it, he was able to naturally come across this and get that thrill of interesting exploration.
They have updated the game to include a notification now after that boss fight, to tell players of the change on the map. Now I do find this interesting because they so rarely resort to this sort of thing, and I believe it's because it robs players of the magic of discovering these things by themselves naturally. Because I believe what now happens is players get the notification, they open the map and set a marker, and just go to the new area as though it was next on some grocery list, they don't have to think and they don't have to explore.
Like, think about it, what are they even conveying in the post Radahn cinematic, where they show you a meteor falling and hitting the lands between? IMO that cinematic exists SOLELY to inform you that something new is on the map and to spark your curiosity to go look around. But evidently, people are unable to see something that they are explicitly being directed towards, unless they have a notification telling them they have new data on the map to go chase.
They have updated the game to include a notification now after that boss fight, to tell players of the change on the map. Now I do find this interesting because they so rarely resort to this sort of thing, and I believe it's because it robs players of the magic of discovering these things by themselves naturally. Because I believe what now happens is players get the notification, they open the map and set a marker, and just go to the new area as though it was next on some grocery list, they don't have to think and they don't have to explore.
Like, think about it, what are they even conveying in the post Radahn cinematic, where they show you a meteor falling and hitting the lands between? IMO that cinematic exists SOLELY to inform you that something new is on the map and to spark your curiosity to go look around. But evidently, people are unable to see something that they are explicitly being directed towards, unless they have a notification telling them they have new data on the map to go chase.
They don't show the exact landing spot but you see the direction it is falling behind the bluffs and I think the idea was for the player to just look around that general direction for an impact site.