PS5 had a 43% share of all console sales over the last 12 months in UK (November 2022 to October 2023), but over the last six months (May 2023 to Oct)

Snes nes

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Sony games are the same price as every other publishers (2k and Activision were the first to raise the price) and they always end up on PS+ (and on sale) after awhile for cheap people.

The PS5 is constantly on sale with free games and bundles. $100+ off for the disc version, even cheaper than the digital. In some markets, Xbox is actually more expensive. As usual all this doom about prices is just uninformed people repeating each other.

I would be more worried about Nintendo never dropping the price for their stuff. Redfall is still full price and subscriptions price keep going up on Xbox.
point 1

I seem to notice both Nintendo and sony artificially Inflating their prices on their products. Sony and Nintendo giving you a ”free game” bundled within a package is a deal too good to be true. I also believe free games come at a price somehow. You‘re paying for that game somehow.
Perhaps the Nintendo tax isn’t an abnormal practice.

Point 2

nintendos current product doesnt go on sale as often due to demand. They can raise the price and people would likely still buy it. Sonys console seems to be struggling 3 years in to top 40 million.


If a regular marketing campaign that every company does is enough to wipe out a brand, that brand was doing far too many things wrong to survive. Some of the takes I've seen regarding Playstation's role in the fall of Sega are ludicrous and reek of fanboy misinformation. I've even seen dudes claim that it was Sony's fault that the Saturn had a weird hardware design and was hard to program for.

question 1: why was the marketing such a big contribution to the PlayStations success?

2: was It really the PlayStation that hurt sega, arcades collapsing themselves or a combination of all of that?

3: were 3D graphic truly ready during this time period?

4: was there something big that the Saturn had the PlayStation lacked?
 
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Cool hand luke

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Point 2

nintendos current product doesnt go on sale as often due to demand. They can raise the price and people would likely still buy it. Sonys console seems to be struggling 3 years in to top 40 million.
Nintendo's former product was an abysmal flop. A Dreamcast level failure that, had they put any technical effort into producing, would've bankrupted them. Instead you're being sold rehashed GameCube tech, hence the lower prices vs the competition in PS5 and the higher profit margins.
 

Zzero

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point 1

I seem to notice both Nintendo and sony artificially Inflating their prices on their products. Sony and Nintendo giving you a ”free game” bundled within a package is a deal too good to be true. I also believe free games come at a price somehow. You‘re paying for that game somehow.
Perhaps the Nintendo tax isn’t an abnormal practice.

Point 2

nintendos current product doesnt go on sale as often due to demand. They can raise the price and people would likely still buy it. Sonys console seems to be struggling 3 years in to top 40 million.




question 1: why was the marketing such a big contribution to the PlayStations success?

2: was It really the PlayStation that hurt sega, arcades collapsing themselves or a combination of all of that?

3: were 3D graphic truly ready during this time period?

4: was there something big that the Saturn had the PlayStation lacked?
Nintendo still has multiple non-bundled units available for purchase, if you don't want any of the bundles you can always get those instead.
 
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I Don’t know how that’s revisionism. Sega did fail due to their own vices but it was also the marketing campaign sony had amping up the ps1. I also agree they’re ramping up prices for their games. I do like the idea of multiple store fronts as well to keep prices down on games.

No, your accounting of history at that time is misinformed, at best. SEGA got rid of their entire SEGA Scream marketing ad agency in America, and the European "Pirate TV" equivalent in that continent. They replaced them with a new ad agency that wasn't as good, alongside curbing back marketing budgets due to losses on returned 16-bit hardware in the Americas (consequences of channel-stuffing; go read the leaked FY '97 documents or watch Pandamonium's video covering them).

Even with marketing, SEGA were their own worst enemy; Sony had little effect in ruining SEGA during that period even if ads like Crash Bandicoot were successful. SEGA just had really bad advertising for Saturn for most of that gen outside of Japan. In fact when SEGA launched the Saturn early in America they couldn't even get ads on TV because the cable networks were caught off-guard just like everybody else.

Sony's marketing for PS1 did what marketing is supposed to do: sell you on the product. It wasn't up to them to sell the Saturn for SEGA. SEGA were never able to create a compelling selling point for Saturn outside of Japan, which is the main reason it failed to catch on.
 

historia

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No, your accounting of history at that time is misinformed, at best. SEGA got rid of their entire SEGA Scream marketing ad agency in America, and the European "Pirate TV" equivalent in that continent. They replaced them with a new ad agency that wasn't as good, alongside curbing back marketing budgets due to losses on returned 16-bit hardware in the Americas (consequences of channel-stuffing; go read the leaked FY '97 documents or watch Pandamonium's video covering them).

Even with marketing, SEGA were their own worst enemy; Sony had little effect in ruining SEGA during that period even if ads like Crash Bandicoot were successful. SEGA just had really bad advertising for Saturn for most of that gen outside of Japan. In fact when SEGA launched the Saturn early in America they couldn't even get ads on TV because the cable networks were caught off-guard just like everybody else.

Sony's marketing for PS1 did what marketing is supposed to do: sell you on the product. It wasn't up to them to sell the Saturn for SEGA. SEGA were never able to create a compelling selling point for Saturn outside of Japan, which is the main reason it failed to catch on.
Saturn and 32x expansion, the stupid catridge that cost massive amount, it doesn't help at all.

The original PS is the easiest machine to develop games at the time, CD disks were readily available, and Sony are bringing that back in the PS4-PS5 era. They clearly learnt a lot from PS3
 

AshHunter216

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point 1

I seem to notice both Nintendo and sony artificially Inflating their prices on their products. Sony and Nintendo giving you a ”free game” bundled within a package is a deal too good to be true. I also believe free games come at a price somehow. You‘re paying for that game somehow.
Perhaps the Nintendo tax isn’t an abnormal practice.

Point 2

nintendos current product doesnt go on sale as often due to demand. They can raise the price and people would likely still buy it. Sonys console seems to be struggling 3 years in to top 40 million.




question 1: why was the marketing such a big contribution to the PlayStations success?

2: was It really the PlayStation that hurt sega, arcades collapsing themselves or a combination of all of that?

3: were 3D graphic truly ready during this time period?

4: was there something big that the Saturn had the PlayStation lacked?
Not sure what point you're attempting to make here,

1. marketing contributes to the success of every brand and every competent company needs to plan around that fact.

2. multiple factors contributed to the decline of Sega, I'm addressing the arguments of the fanboys on Resetera that attempt to blame PlayStation out of a fanboyish need/desire to demonize them and justify the massive buyouts MS are doing now.

3. Several platforms were doing 3D graphics during that time, Sega's problem was that they were doing a mostly 2D-focused console and then clumsily tried to pivot to 3D capabilities at the 11th hour after hearing about what the competition was doing.

4. Sega had a larger first party at the time, but they mismanaged it into oblivion. Sega of America and Sega of Japan were at odds with each other over fundamental details.
 
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Snes nes

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Not sure what point you're attempting to make here,

I just want to argue for the sake of arguing tbh I’m a habitually argument I’ve person to My own detriment :)

1. marketing contributes to the success of every brand and every competent company needs to plan around that fact.

A marketing campaign that did a lot of harm to its competitors.
2. multiple factors contributed to the decline of Sega, I'm addressing the arguments of the fanboys on Resetera that attempt to blame PlayStation out of a fanboyish need/desire to demonize them and justify the massive buyouts MS are doing now.

Well lets start with this game that was canceled due to ”hardware limitations.”




3. Several platforms were doing 3D graphics during that time, Sega's problem was that they were doing a mostly 2D-focused console and then clumsily tried to pivot to 3D capabilities at the 11th hour after hearing about what the competition was doing.

Sega did not randomly decide to just put a 3d chip into their console. It was designed the way it was from the beginning and did have better 2D textures in-game compared to the ps1.

4. Sega had a larger first party at the time, but they mismanaged it into oblivion. Sega of America and Sega of Japan were at odds with each other over fundamental details.

I’m pretty sure it’s the same situation sony is facing right now.
 
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I just want to argue for the sake of arguing tbh I’m a habitually argument I’ve person to My own detriment :)



A marketing campaign that did a lot of harm to its competitors.

Not really. Sony didn't spend a lot of time directly marketing against Sega, anywhere near what Sega did to Nintendo in the gen just prior. Off the top of my head, only a few of the Crash ads did (which also made fun of Mario/Nintendo, FWIW). The vast majority of SCEA & SCEE's marketing was focused on selling people on the PS1, they didn't really directly (or indirectly) go after Sega or Nintendo.

I dunno about SCEJ, but I doubt they did much of that either, especially since that's not really a style you saw from the Japanese side of companies during the '90s.

Well lets start with this game that was canceled due to ”hardware limitations.”



Tomb Raider 1 already struggled to run on the Saturn; you should watch the DF Retro episode on it that John did. It shows you how the Saturn did its 3D; basically it was distorted sprites (quads). A supercharged version of the Superscaler sprite technology from hardware like the System Y arcade board and the boards that powered Outrun, Outrunners, Afterburner etc.

By the time Tomb Raider 2 was in development and due for market, the Saturn was already mostly dead in the West and Bernie Stolar finished it off with that "The Saturn is not our future" comment at E3 1997. After that, TONS of 3P devs started cancelling Saturn titles in the middle of development, left and right. So, PS1 got a ton of defacto exclusives as a result; even the N64 got a boost in 3P support because of Sega's horrible mismanagement of Saturn outside of Japan and signaling the platform was effectively dead by mid-1997.

Sega did not randomly decide to just put a 3d chip into their console. It was designed the way it was from the beginning and did have better 2D textures in-game compared to the ps1.

No it wasn't. Saturn was primarily designed with 2D in mind when it went under the name 'GigaDrive'. It supported 3D from the beginning, but rudimentary 3D closer to Model 1. AFAIK it was not even planned to handle texturing in hardware, though I suppose the CPU would've helped there (like it did with 32X, which has no 3D acceleration hardware and relies on its second SH2 to do 3D in software mode).

So it's half-true that Saturn had 3D in mind from the get-go. However, it was not to the level it would eventually have, because the 2nd VDP and SH2 weren't part of the original design spec. Only after they got word of the PS1's specs, did Nakayama have the 'Away Team' scramble to beef up Saturn's 3D without needing a delay, so they turned to parallel programming and made it a dual-CPU and dual-graphics processor system (but failed to adjust the system bus to compensate, among other things).

I’m pretty sure it’s the same situation sony is facing right now.

More than a little too soon to say. If there are issues happening with SIE 1P studios ATM, I wouldn't say they're anywhere near the level of mismanagement Sega had over their studios in the mid '90s. It'd also, whatever issues there are with 1P studio management at SIE, they have already identified those issues and are putting together solutions to address them. SOA and SOJ were never on the same page to realize their management problems until it was way too late, and also rushed yet another system (Dreamcast) out to market to try fixing perceived issues while repeating some of the same mistakes they did with Saturn.

Also; Sony naturally gained the vast majority of their software support from 3P who saw that Sony provided a superior solution for the market compared to Sega and Nintendo, so they chose to focus their efforts on PS1. Even after acquiring Psygnosis (btw, Sega acquired a SDK manufacturer a year prior to that), Sony's 1P and publishing label was still smaller in overall output than Sega (who published 155 games in 1995 alone), and arguably not that much larger than Nintendo's if at all when going by total software sales and revenue.

In other words, Sony didn't buy up big chunks of the 3P market to bolster their platform's own software support when said platform was otherwise failing to resonate with 3P devs, pubs and majority of consumers. In other other words, they didn't (haven't) done what Microsoft has resorted to doing to try gaining or maintaining relevance.

So basically, the situations Sega faced then, and Sony face now, are not the same.
 

Snes nes

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Not really. Sony didn't spend a lot of time directly marketing against Sega, anywhere near what Sega did to Nintendo in the gen just prior. Off the top of my head, only a few of the Crash ads did (which also made fun of Mario/Nintendo, FWIW). The vast majority of SCEA & SCEE's marketing was focused on selling people on the PS1, they didn't really directly (or indirectly) go after Sega or Nintendo.

False sony had A new product coming out and pushed aggressively for it.
I dunno about SCEJ, but I doubt they did much of that either, especially since that's not really a style you saw from the Japanese side of companies during the '90s.




Tomb Raider 1 already struggled to run on the Saturn; you should watch the DF Retro episode on it that John did. It shows you how the Saturn did its 3D; basically it was distorted sprites (quads). A supercharged version of the Superscaler sprite technology from hardware like the System Y arcade board and the boards that powered Outrun, Outrunners, Afterburner etc.

By the time Tomb Raider 2 was in development and due for market, the Saturn was already mostly dead in the West and Bernie Stolar finished it off with that "The Saturn is not our future" comment at E3 1997. After that, TONS of 3P devs started cancelling Saturn titles in the middle of development, left and right. So, PS1 got a ton of defacto exclusives as a result; even the N64 got a boost in 3P support because of Sega's horrible mismanagement of Saturn outside of Japan and signaling the platform was effectively dead by mid-1997.

I showed you more proof of their ad campaign in my previous post. Devs didn’t just ditch it due to the sdk. Sony moneyhatted that game off the Saturn. The same areas where the Saturn struggled the ps1 did as well. The differences are quite honestly negligible between the two. If anything the Saturns lighting might be a bit better.



No it wasn't. Saturn was primarily designed with 2D in mind when it went under the name 'GigaDrive'. It supported 3D from the beginning, but rudimentary 3D closer to Model 1. AFAIK it was not even planned to handle texturing in hardware, though I suppose the CPU would've helped there (like it did with 32X, which has no 3D acceleration hardware and relies on its second SH2 to do 3D in software mode).
So it's half-true that Saturn had 3D in mind from the get-go. However, it was not to the level it would eventually have, because the 2nd VDP and SH2 weren't part of the original design spec. Only after they got word of the PS1's specs, did Nakayama have the 'Away Team' scramble to beef up Saturn's 3D without needing a delay, so they turned to parallel programming and made it a dual-CPU and dual-graphics processor system (but failed to adjust the system bus to compensate, among other things).

false. You do not just slap in a turbocharger into your car at the last minute. Sega was a pioneer in 3D gaming from the get go.

More than a little too soon to say. If there are issues happening with SIE 1P studios ATM, I wouldn't say they're anywhere near the level of mismanagement Sega had over their studios in the mid '90s. It'd also, whatever issues there are with 1P studio management at SIE, they have already identified those issues and are putting together solutions to address them. SOA and SOJ were never on the same page to realize their management problems until it was way too late, and also rushed yet another system (Dreamcast) out to market to try fixing perceived issues while repeating some of the same mistakes they did with Saturn.


Also; Sony naturally gained the vast majority of their software support from 3P who saw that Sony provided a superior solution for the market compared to Sega and Nintendo, so they chose to focus their efforts on PS1. Even after acquiring Psygnosis (btw, Sega acquired a SDK manufacturer a year prior to that), Sony's 1P and publishing label was still smaller in overall output than Sega (who published 155 games in 1995 alone), and arguably not that much larger than Nintendo's if at all when going by total software sales and revenue.

To this day they still moneyhat exclusivity from other players.


In other words, Sony didn't buy up big chunks of the 3P market to bolster their platform's own software support when said platform was otherwise failing to resonate with 3P devs, pubs and majority of consumers. In other otherwords, they didn't (haven't) done what Microsoft has resorted to doing to try gaining or maintaining relevance.


So basically, the situations Sega faced then, and Sony face now, are not the same.
 

Darth Vader

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False sony had A new product coming out and pushed aggressively for it.

He said Sony didn't aggressively market against Sega, which is true. They marketed their own product aggressively.

I showed you more proof of their ad campaign in my previous post. Devs didn’t just ditch it due to the sdk. Sony moneyhatted that game off the Saturn. The same areas where the Saturn struggled the ps1 did as well. The differences are quite honestly negligible between the two. If anything the Saturns lighting might be a bit better.

I'm sorry but you need to get your eyes checked. Tomb Raider on the Saturn a) ran worse, b) had lessened quality FMV, c) worse FX (mostly water/transparencies), and d) worse lighting.

false. You do not just slap in a turbocharger into your car at the last minute. Sega was a pioneer in 3D gaming from the get go.

How so?

To this day they still moneyhat exclusivity from other players.

How is this a Sony-only thing? Xbox is not only moneyhatting games, they are acquiring massive publishers. Regardless of Sony's money hats or lack thereof, the reason Sega collapsed is entirely due to Sega themselves, no matter how much spin doctors try to change that fact.

Sony didn't force Sega to do any of the following:
  • Release the 32x and SegaCD
  • Create a monstrosity of a console that required 4 degrees in theoretical physics to understand its architecture.
  • Release the Saturn with little to no promotion in the US just to beat Sony, and piss off retailers in the process
  • Provide little to no development and architecture documentation for the Saturn, which effectively disincentivised developers from working with the platform
  • Pretty much abandon the console (and the brand) in the Western markets from 1998 to 1999
  • Release the successor (a great console) without any semblance of copyright protection
  • Refuse EA's request for a concession whereby Sega would not develop sports games in competition with them, effectively killing a lot of potential sales to sports enthusiasts
Sega managed to
  • Shoot themselves in the foot with a small gun by fucking developers
  • Shoot themselves in the foot with a shotgun by fucking with retailers
  • Shoot themselves in the foot with a grenade launcher by fucking with consumer goodwill by abandoning a console 3 years post-release
  • Shoot themselves in the foot with a nuke by fucking with EA when they were in no position to bargai
 
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