[The Verge] Final Fantasy XVI has a medieval approach to diversity

[KiryuRealty]

The only questionable take is yours 0_0.

What's funny is the same company, different team of course, created a diverse medieval themed game in Forspoken, so they know it's possible. But like I said originally, its very rare for Japanese/Korean devs to create NPC's/characters with anything other than light skin tones. That's only really changed as of late.

The creators of the game should be allowed to have whatever cast they want, and everyone who disagrees should just play something else if they’re so offended by the artist’s vision.

You know, the way the world was before all this identity horseshit was suddenly made into a thing.

 

[Shmunter]

You're clearly approaching or have entered the stages of the white replacement theory, so I'll just point you to Dodrake's post above and use my ignore feature.

1) It's a video game with flying bird monsters, it can have non white people if they so chose. And 2) Europe was and still is ethnically diverse.

It can also have mobile phones & lightsaber. No cohesion of setting needed as soon as it’s fantasy. Elbert Einstein ladies and gentlemen.

Yes ignore me you woke moron.

 

[Satoru]

You're clearly approaching or have entered the stages of the white replacement theory, so I'll just point you to Dodrake's post above and use my ignore feature.

1) It's a video game with flying bird monsters, it can have non white people if they so chose. And 2) Europe was and still is ethnically diverse.

Nah, look at an Italian, a Greek, a swede and an Irish, they all look the same.

/s

 

[Zeroing]

If Europe has always been as diverse as you imagine, diversity wouldn’t even be a topic today because it would just be the way of things. A handful of examples of painting or artefacts do not a baseline make.

This garbage that Europe was never white and the race has no roots is pure racism.

First I have to tell you that in the middle ages, race was not an issue, religion was...

South of Europe was diverse and still is culturally, diversity is not an issue today in southern Europe because people started to marry one another and exchanging cultures and costumes and things evolved for more than 500 years so things became a little more homogeneous.

The main issue here is the diversity ideas you are talking about are mainly constructs from England and USA who took a very restrictive approach to diversity for centuries.
If you are from the south of Europe and you do a really good DNA test, chances are you will have more in common with other races than with the deep north of Europe.

Thus diversity.

Some crazy takes here proclaiming Medievil Europe looking like California in 2023

Nah it it could not, Asia was pretty much unknown by Europe. You are the one who is exaggerating with your crazy takes.

 

[Swift_Star]

The creators of the game should be allowed to have whatever cast they want, and everyone who disagrees should just play something else if they’re so offended by the artist’s vision.

You know, the way the world was before all this identity horseshit was suddenly made into a thing.

everyone agrees with that, even @nongkris, the point he’s making is that Europe has always been diverse and that the director’s excuse is lame, both are true.
But we all agree, that, yeah, he is allowed to make the cast however he wants.

 

[KiryuRealty]

everyone agrees with that, even @nongkris, the point he’s making is that Europe has always been diverse and that the director’s excuse is lame, both are true.
But we all agree, that, yeah, he is allowed to make the cast however he wants.

Some parts of Europe were, other parts of Europe, they’d kill anyone with the wrong colour of hair.

 

[Deleted member 417]

FWIW Muslim and catholic isn't a race. The two biggest races in Europe in the middle ages were Causcasion and the 400m steeple-chase.

 

[Shmunter]

First I have to tell you that in the middle ages, race was not an issue, religion was...

South of Europe was diverse and still is culturally, diversity is not an issue today in southern Europe because people started to marry one another and exchanging cultures and costumes and things evolved for more than 500 years so things became a little more homogeneous.

The main issue here is the diversity ideas you are talking about are mainly constructs from England and USA who took a very restrictive approach to diversity for centuries.
If you are from the south of Europe and you do a really good DNA test, chances are you will have more in common with other races than with the deep north of Europe.

Thus diversity.


Nah it it could not, Asia was pretty much unknown by Europe. You are the one who is exaggerating with your crazy takes.

There is a reason South of Europe was more diverse, it’s all to do with Geography and access to other continents. There is no question to this, nor is there a lack of representation in media of Ancient Rome conquering and assimilating many other cultures for example. This is not the conversation.

The diversity expected by the article and proponents of skin color diversity everywhere, at all times as a standard is the issue. When Columbus brought back a handful of American Indians to Europe, that’s a worthy story - not that American Indians were documented in mid Century Europe therefore Europe must have been a melting pot of global ethnicity.

People rarely ventured outside their villages for their whole lives much less immigrated cross continent. Mobility was practically non existent and that shapes the regional ethnicity and creates period accurate cohesion.

Feudal Japan shouldn’t have white representation, century old African Tribes shouldn’t have Latino representation. It defies common sense to misrepresent cultural makeup when attempting to ground it in a time appropriate way. But logic be damned.

 

[KiryuRealty]

There is a reason South of Europe was more divers, it’s all to do with Geography and access to other continents. There is no question to this, nor is there a lack of representation in media of Ancient Rome conquering and assimilating many other cultures for example. This is not the conversation.

The diversity expected by the article and proponents of skin color diversity everywhere, at all times as a standard is the issue. When Columbus brought back a handful of American Indians to Europe, that’s a worthy story - not that American Indians were documented in mid Century Europe therefore Europe must have been a melting pot of global ethnicity.

People rarely ventured outside their villages for their whole lives much less immigrated cross continent. Mobility was practically non existent and that shapes the regional ethnicity and creates period accurate cohesion.

Feudal Japan shouldn’t have white representation, century old African Tribes shouldn’t have Latino representation. It defies common sense to misrepresent cultural makeup when attempting to ground it in a time appropriate way. But logic be damned.

“Diversity”=no white males allowed to most of the identity pimps.

It’s really that simple.

 

[anonpuffs]

“Diversity”=no white males allowed to most of the identity pimps.

It’s really that simple.

funny there was no lack of diversity accusations against hi-fi rush...WASP male protagonist

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Shit reason to not have non white people in a game with fantasy in the title but the game looks good enough that I'll ignore it.

The japanese devs chose to make a fantasy game about medieval europe, which had multiple races and ethnicities. So the excuse that their being realistic to the time is false. But that's sadly to be expected from eastern devs where darker skin tones barely exist to them in games.

Normally I'd probably have an issue with it but in FF XVI's case I honestly don't see the issue. I mean the dev team are Japanese, but AFAIK there are no Japanese or Asian characters in this FF game either. So I don't know why anyone would expect other non-white characters in the game.

I appreciate that Yoshida is polite in his answer, but as someone that would fall into "POC" designation and according to some types, should be upset about it, I just really do not care. I've grown up with a lot of diverse media, and while some of my favorite works happen to be diverse, a lot of others aren't, but I enjoy them just the same.

Personally it feels like there are people trying to drum up another Hogwarts type of controversy with this game; the fact it's a PS5 exclusive is just even more a reason (and yes, SOME of the people trying to push this as a controversy are only interested in using it as a vector to attack a game because it's a PlayStation exclusive. It gets easier to identify those types when they keep talking long enough). I think the controversy around Hogwarts was overblown; the nontroversy (IMO) over FF XVI not having non-white characters (that we've seen so far) is even more overblown.

What's kind of funny to me is I bet some of the same people trying to hold FF XVI's feet to the fire for not having Black/Asian/Latino etc. main characters, were also trashing and meming on Forspoken, despite that game having a black female lead. For some reason that wasn't good enough, even though many of the people who've actually played the game say it's pretty fun. Not a masterpiece, but it's a decent game.

And I guess this is kind of an aside but, why does it seem like EVERY game needs to be ethnically diverse? Again I bring up Forspoken; from the same publisher no less. What's inherently wrong with FF XVI having a white main cast? One of my favorite movies is Inglorious Basterds; outside of the black French dude (who was pretty cool), the whole cast was white. Didn't bother me. Empire Records is probably a new favorite of mine; all white cast, doesn't matter. In fact there are other movies or shows that are almost exclusively of a single ethnicity, like Save The Green Planet (Korean), Boyz In The Hood (African-American), or Selena (Mexican), and I can connect with those stories and those characters easily.

When did something so simple start becoming a problem?

funny there was no lack of diversity accusations against hi-fi rush...WASP male protagonist

Because it wasn't a PlayStation exclusive. Honestly, I think that's a big reason why this "narrative" is suddenly a thing and why it's suddenly a controversy. Also I find it funny how the first time it was pushed, it was some white editor at IGN who asked the questions. I guess The Verge figured people picked up on it so they had a black female writer pen this new piece.

I mean if she thinks it's an issue, fine. I disagree with them. But I also can't help that a certain forum with a rather weird hate-boner against PlayStation these days was the first one to big-up the op-ed and are trying to make it into a big news item. Considering (IIRC) they have Verge writers there as members, of course they would.

Medieval Europe had shitloads of diversity though. At the beginning of the Medieval era the western Roman empire had just fallen, but you still had the remnants of their reign. The eastern Roman empire was hugely diverse, with Muslims, Catholics, orthodox, etc. southern Europe was a mix bag of Central European, Mediterranean, North African.

I get what you're saying, but why does Final Fantasy XVI need to be the game that reflects this?

And while those groups you mention did have peoples who proliferated in parts of Europe during those times, I think as @Shmunter was saying (maybe a bit bluntly), the vast majority of the populations of those countries were still of European descent. Ethnic Italian, Spaniard, German, Irish etc. And I think you see that reflected in the vast majority of the art and literature of the period from those countries.

It's like this; if I'm playing something like Ghosts of Tsushima, I don't necessarily expect or demand for a bunch of non-Asian people to be in that, even if some small numbers of non-Asian people came and went within Japan during the period. If I'm playing a game based on late '70s/early '80s hip-hop culture in New York (that would make for a really cool future GTA or a GTA-like game IMHO), I don't expect or demand for a bunch of white or Asian people in that because the people who were part of that scene were predominantly black.

If I'm playing a game based on medieval European time period and culture, I'm not expecting or demanding non-white characters in that because while it would maybe be a nice bonus if a couple showed up, and I know there were a few in modest-sized groups or communities who proliferated parts of countries in Europe at the time, the vast majority were white. The culture of the countries at that period, the main cultures anyway, were established by people of ethnically European descent. So that's what I expect to see and I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

 

[Shmunter]

Normally I'd probably have an issue with it but in FF XVI's case I honestly don't see the issue. I mean the dev team are Japanese, but AFAIK there are no Japanese or Asian characters in this FF game either. So I don't know why anyone would expect other non-white characters in the game.

I appreciate that Yoshida is polite in his answer, but as someone that would fall into "POC" designation and according to some types, should be upset about it, I just really do not care. I've grown up with a lot of diverse media, and while some of my favorite works happen to be diverse, a lot of others aren't, but I enjoy them just the same.

Personally it feels like there are people trying to drum up another Hogwarts type of controversy with this game; the fact it's a PS5 exclusive is just even more a reason (and yes, SOME of the people trying to push this as a controversy are only interested in using it as a vector to attack a game because it's a PlayStation exclusive. It gets easier to identify those types when they keep talking long enough). I think the controversy around Hogwarts was overblown; the nontroversy (IMO) over FF XVI not having non-white characters (that we've seen so far) is even more overblown.

What's kind of funny to me is I bet some of the same people trying to hold FF XVI's feet to the fire for not having Black/Asian/Latino etc. main characters, were also trashing and meming on Forspoken, despite that game having a black female lead. For some reason that wasn't good enough, even though many of the people who've actually played the game say it's pretty fun. Not a masterpiece, but it's a decent game.

And I guess this is kind of an aside but, why does it seem like EVERY game needs to be ethnically diverse? Again I bring up Forspoken; from the same publisher no less. What's inherently wrong with FF XVI having a white main cast? One of my favorite movies is Inglorious Basterds; outside of the black French dude (who was pretty cool), the whole cast was white. Didn't bother me. Empire Records is probably a new favorite of mine; all white cast, doesn't matter. In fact there are other movies or shows that are almost exclusively of a single ethnicity, like Save The Green Planet (Korean), Boyz In The Hood (African-American), or Selena (Mexican), and I can connect with those stories and those characters easily.

When did something so simple start becoming a problem?



Because it wasn't a PlayStation exclusive. Honestly, I think that's a big reason why this "narrative" is suddenly a thing and why it's suddenly a controversy. Also I find it funny how the first time it was pushed, it was some white editor at IGN who asked the questions. I guess The Verge figured people picked up on it so they had a black female writer pen this new piece.

I mean if she thinks it's an issue, fine. I disagree with them. But I also can't help that a certain forum with a rather weird hate-boner against PlayStation these days was the first one to big-up the op-ed and are trying to make it into a big news item. Considering (IIRC) they have Verge writers there as members, of course they would.



I get what you're saying, but why does Final Fantasy XVI need to be the game that reflects this?

And while those groups you mention did have peoples who proliferated in parts of Europe during those times, I think as @Shmunter was saying (maybe a bit bluntly), the vast majority of the populations of those countries were still of European descent. Ethnic Italian, Spaniard, German, Irish etc. And I think you see that reflected in the vast majority of the art and literature of the period from those countries.

It's like this; if I'm playing something like Ghosts of Tsushima, I don't necessarily expect or demand for a bunch of non-Asian people to be in that, even if some small numbers of non-Asian people came and went within Japan during the period. If I'm playing a game based on late '70s/early '80s hip-hop culture in New York (that would make for a really cool future GTA or a GTA-like game IMHO), I don't expect or demand for a bunch of white or Asian people in that because the people who were part of that scene were predominantly black.

If I'm playing a game based on medieval European time period and culture, I'm not expecting or demanding non-white characters in that because while it would maybe be a nice bonus if a couple showed up, and I know there were a few in modest-sized groups or communities who proliferated parts of countries in Europe at the time, the vast majority were white. The culture of the countries at that period, the main cultures anyway, were established by people of ethnically European descent. So that's what I expect to see and I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

Well written and comprehensive. At the end of the day it’s a clarity of mind that expects sense in representation and not simple pandering. And that goes in every direction and every setting. It is not that it’s white or black, it is the nonsense others keep pushing that I find absolutely tasteless.

Good work sells itself by the rules of the setting & the way characters realistically bahave in the situations they are in. As soon as you deviate and break the relationship it fails.

Part of my issue with Gow Ragnarok is the over abundance of modern language and typical Americanism in a game trying to sell fantastical Norse mythology. It rubs the the wrong way personally, the tone of it is disjointed. Clearly many are ok with this based on the reception.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Well written and comprehensive. At the end of the day it’s a clarity of mind that expects sense in representation and not simple pandering. And that goes in every direction and every setting. It is not that it’s white or black, it is the nonsense others keep pushing that I find absolutely tasteless.

Good work sells itself by the rules of the setting & the way characters realistically bahave in the situations they are in. As soon as you deviate and break the relationship it fails.

Part of my issue with Gow Ragnarok is the over abundance of modern language and typical Americanism in a game trying to sell fantastical Norse mythology. It rubs the the wrong way personally, the tone of it is disjointed. Clearly many are ok with this based on the reception.

Not gaming-related but did you watch the new Willow series? I mean the show was a train wreck, but part of the reason IMO was because of the modern language and modern-ish music choices in what was supposed to be a most medieval setting. A lot of the cast in that show were using language and mannerisms you see on TikTok. I don't know what the producers, writers and showrunners were thinking outside of being creatively vapid.

And I'm probably the odd one here on this take but one of the reasons I don't agree with the idea the Star Wars prequel trilogy had "bad dialog" is because I always thought Lucas was clearly going for a Shakespearian theater type of language and diction. Not loaded with metaphors and prose like actual Shakespearian works, but where you can definitely tell it's meant to have a flavor of the type of speech that was probably common among royals in Victorian-era kingdom courts, or something along those lines.

I agree that very good fantasy should usually avoid using modern pop culture language, trendy mannerisms and references because that just kills a lot of the believability in it being an otherworldly place unlike our own. But back to the main topic, yeah I personally have no issues with the FF XVI team's choices when it comes to the cast of the game. Just the idea that literally everything needs to be equally diverse is ironically homogenization of a different type.

I just want a really fun JRPG with an interesting cast and atmosphere and so far it's looking like FF XVI is going to deliver that in spades.

 

[Shmunter]

Not gaming-related but did you watch the new Willow series? I mean the show was a train wreck, but part of the reason IMO was because of the modern language and modern-ish music choices in what was supposed to be a most medieval setting. A lot of the cast in that show were using language and mannerisms you see on TikTok. I don't know what the producers, writers and showrunners were thinking outside of being creatively vapid.

And I'm probably the odd one here on this take but one of the reasons I don't agree with the idea the Star Wars prequel trilogy had "bad dialog" is because I always thought Lucas was clearly going for a Shakespearian theater type of language and diction. Not loaded with metaphors and prose like actual Shakespearian works, but where you can definitely tell it's meant to have a flavor of the type of speech that was probably common among royals in Victorian-era kingdom courts, or something along those lines.

I agree that very good fantasy should usually avoid using modern pop culture language, trendy mannerisms and references because that just kills a lot of the believability in it being an otherworldly place unlike our own. But back to the main topic, yeah I personally have no issues with the FF XVI team's choices when it comes to the cast of the game. Just the idea that literally everything needs to be equally diverse is ironically homogenization of a different type.

I just want a really fun JRPG with an interesting cast and atmosphere and so far it's looking like FF XVI is going to deliver that in spades.

Have not seen Willow show and will definitely not attempt it after your critique. Do have fond memories from childhood of the movie.

And you’re absolutely right, the more diverse everything becomes, the more same it all becomes, and by definition less diverse in on it self as a peice of work.

 

[Vertigo]

The game is the vision of its creators. Garbage games “journalism” at its finest. They owe you nothing.

I wanted Vanilla Ice in Def Jam Vendetta but that didn’t happen either. Fun game.

I’m sure I should have been upset at the Greek stereotype accents in AssCreed Odyssey too. I mean I’m Greek I should be offended right? Nah, that shit was kinda hilariously on the money. Oh, I was supposed to be triggered the internet tells me. Nah.

 

[EN250]

The japanese devs chose to make a fantasy game about medieval europe, which had multiple races and ethnicities. So the excuse that their being realistic to the time is false

Or maybe it's just a nice excuse to have for when some "journalists" want to prepare their hit pieces and attack everyone not following their cosmopolitan way of living

Japanese are biased towards white people, that's why they portray their characater like this

I'm not white and ain't crying about the lack of inclusion for the sake of it, it's their preference, it's their creation and they're allowed to fill that with whatever they want, so long as they don't go do sh*t to harm every other race it's ok

 

[Swift_Star]

Or maybe it's just a nice excuse to have for when some "journalists" want to prepare their hit pieces and attack everyone not following their cosmopolitan way of living

Japanese are biased towards white people, that's why they portray their characater like this

I'm not white and ain't crying about the lack of inclusion for the sake of it, it's their preference, it's their creation and they're allowed to fill that with whatever they want, so long as they don't go do sh*t to harm every other race it's ok

Nah, they aren't. Japanese characters on manga, anime and games are mostly japanese. Sometimes they aren't and when they aren't the manga goes out of its way to point it out.
This FF specifically is comprised of "white people" because it's set on a european fantasy setting, but X, VII, XIII and others are comprised of japanese characters.
Japanese are not white.

 

[EN250]

Nah, they aren't. Japanese characters on manga, anime and games are mostly japanese. Sometimes they aren't and when they aren't the manga goes out of its way to point it out.
This FF specifically is comprised of "white people" because it's set on a european fantasy setting, but X, VII, XIII and others are comprised of japanese characters.
Japanese are not white.

I'm not discussing nationality of their characters, just how they're depicted as blond, pale skin and with colored eyes, or dark haired that makes their skin and eyes color stand out even more, DBZ would make hitler blush, considering Goku is better/more powerful only when he goes full aryan race

Japanese are not white, tho depending on where they live, their skin is pale af, but I know, facial features won't allow it

Idk, American view on race is different than the rest, to me is way more insulting to lump every non white person in the same category so they end up classified as POC

 

[Swift_Star]

I'm not discussing nationality of their characters, just how they're depicted as blond, pale skin and with colored eyes, or dark haired that makes their skin and eyes color stand out even more, DBZ would make hitler blush, considering Goku is better/more powerful only when he goes full aryan race

Japanese are not white, tho depending on where they live, their skin is pale af, but I know, facial features won't allow it

Idk, American view on race is different than the rest, to me is way more insulting to lump every non white person in the same category so they end up classified as POC

I also find that weird af. I found out the other day they don't even consider Italians as white. Wild.

 

[Dabaus]

Why does every game have to look like an American city? If someone wants to make a Black panther game with an all black cast, more power to them. If someone wants to make a game based on European architecture and wants a European cast, more power to them. If Asians want to make a game that focuses only on Asians, more power to them. Games that put diversity front and center as a selling point almost universally flop.