Tom Caswell (Gamespot Producer) - Playstation was pressured by Sony to make PSVR2, their heart wasn't into it 🧂🧂

Neversummer

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Sony literally just bought Bungie less than 2 years ago for 3.6 billion dollars...

You're angry that Sony is investing across the board? You focused on revenue here rather than operating income for a reason.
I’m angry Sony/PS acquisition targets are ass & it’s direction it’s taking will effect my investment I made on PS console.

3.6 billion could’ve bought Kadokawa giving PS 2 new studios Fromsoft & Spike Chunsoft. 2 studios that would’ve made exclusive games for PS. 1 (FS) making the iconic souls genre & (SC) who make good JRPG games filling areas PS lacks. Oh & Sony would’ve have extra cash to spend & buy a couple more single studios since kadokawa is worth around 2-2.5 & that’s after a high w Elden Ring.

I’m not really mad Sony is investing across the board at Sony but the fact that there willing to buy Paramount a dying entertainment company w ip that is not strong enough to hold itself up against other Hollywood competitors for 26 billion while there biggest revenue maker (PS) is at threat of other competitors & PS output/lineup looking spooky compare to other competitors. See if PS had Nintendo ip & output there would be no worry but w Nintendo double downing on console & output aswell as MS continuing to consolidate + other outside like Saudis looking to buy a gaming publisher PS is continuing to loose important partners & franchise that could no longer release on PS platform.
 

Neversummer

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Is a VR studio the best investment you could make right now? And they did buy Firesprite. So not sure what to tell you.
If this is the logic, kill PSVR2. Why even make a VR headset if this is the logic.

Need to spend money to make money. Sometime you spend money in an investment & you loose sometimes you got to spend money into a platform in the short run to have a platform in the long run.

Certainly Meta/Quest will enjoy there complete dominance in the VR space. Wouldn’t be surprising if Meta builds there brand & studios in VR & makes a hybrid handheld in the future allowing you to play Meta exclusive AAA singleplayer games aswell as 3rd party. Atleast Meta will have true exclusive giving the way they been moving seems everyone expect PS & Xbox is playing the long game.
 

Neversummer

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Sony in 2024

FF7 rebirth exclusivity
Helldivers 2
Destiny 2 Final Shape
Stellar Blade
Rise of The Ronin
Astrobot
Until Dawn
Concord
Ghost of Tsushima PC
God of War Ragnarok PC

Absolutely massive year for any publisher
Lol

@Nhomnhom

6 PC games

3 2/3rd party games soon to release on PC & or Sony doesn’t own ip or will do anything w the ip after 1 games

1 true singleplayer PS exclusive in 2024 that being Astro Bot AA, should have 2-4 player coop (day 1 pick up btw) which since it has so many PS ip ties it will likely never be ported to PC but knowing Sony I wouldn’t be surprised if Astro Bot got a Nintendo port

“Absolute massive year for any publisher” PS providing more games for PC players than PS players & its own platform. It’s down bad when we considering 2nd/3rd party games to fill in PS lineup. 2nd/3rd party games/ip are supposed to be the cherry on top of Sony own PS ip especially from key franchises.
 
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Danja

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Good! They need to hurry up and dump all the unsold stock unto PC players and let this thing die.
 
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mibu no ookami

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I’m angry Sony/PS acquisition targets are ass & it’s direction it’s taking will effect my investment I made on PS console.

3.6 billion could’ve bought Kadokawa giving PS 2 new studios Fromsoft & Spike Chunsoft. 2 studios that would’ve made exclusive games for PS. 1 (FS) making the iconic souls genre & (SC) who make good JRPG games filling areas PS lacks. Oh & Sony would’ve have extra cash to spend & buy a couple more single studios since kadokawa is worth around 2-2.5 & that’s after a high w Elden Ring.

Bungie was significantly more valuable than Kadokawa, particularly from a strategic perspective. Sony needed to make inroads with GaaS and FPS, especially with Microsoft buying Activision and Zenimax. Sony's strength in single player AAA games was its weakness in GaaS... you know the games that are generating the most revenue in the industry right now?

From has made exclusive games for Playstation before and none of them has sold super well. Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, Deracine. So you have to ask what Sony gets by having From be exclusive to PlayStation, especially if you don't want them supporting PC, which is something you've said multiple times. What was the last game PlayStation didn't receive that was made by FromSoftware? Sony is already getting 30% of those digital sales without any investment in development. So you're not going to drastically increase your profit margin without supporting PC.

Also base premium for buying a company is generally 125%. 2.5 billion USD market cap, is going to end up costing about 3.125 to 3.7 billion USD. So ballpark this could have cost significantly more than Bungie, particularly if you add in retention bonuses for FromSoftware, which I'm sure you'd have to do.

Meanwhile, you're still falling backwards on the biggest segment of gaming GaaS.

Also I think you have this fantasy that jRPGs are a bigger genre than they are. The PS5 has the largest jRPGs on the market, many of which are exclusive. You're not moving the needle on these with any moves.

I’m not really mad Sony is investing across the board at Sony but the fact that there willing to buy Paramount a dying entertainment company w ip that is not strong enough to hold itself up against other Hollywood competitors for 26 billion while there biggest revenue maker (PS) is at threat of other competitors & PS output/lineup looking spooky compare to other competitors. See if PS had Nintendo ip & output there would be no worry but w Nintendo double downing on console & output aswell as MS continuing to consolidate + other outside like Saudis looking to buy a gaming publisher PS is continuing to loose important partners & franchise that could no longer release on PS platform.

You just have a massive misconception about the value of Paramount's IP. You also continue to lie. They were never going to buy them for 26 billion. That was the conceptual bid between both Sony and Apollo and included covering the cost of debt for Paramount.

Sony has more market share now than they've had in over a decade...

You keep on focusing on revenue, but operating income is key here. Doubling down on gaming without improving your operating income is a recipe for disaster.


If this is the logic, kill PSVR2. Why even make a VR headset if this is the logic.

Need to spend money to make money. Sometime you spend money in an investment & you loose sometimes you got to spend money into a platform in the short run to have a platform in the long run.

Certainly Meta/Quest will enjoy there complete dominance in the VR space. Wouldn’t be surprising if Meta builds there brand & studios in VR & makes a hybrid handheld in the future allowing you to play Meta exclusive AAA singleplayer games aswell as 3rd party. Atleast Meta will have true exclusive giving the way they been moving seems everyone expect PS & Xbox is playing the long game.

Again, you think the litmus test for success is millions of units sold. Simply having something in place to gauge the market is a key success in business.

Look at Zoom during the pandemic. Zoom was not heavily utilized before the pandemic, but their featureset allowed them to become dominant in the personal market, which allowed it to make inroads in the corporate market.

All of this despite Microsoft and Apple's positions with Skype/Teams and Facetime or major companies likes Cisco with WebEx.

Sony is more than happy to allow Meta to continue investing to grow the VR market, while they stay ready to respond without overinvesting. It's the same reason why Sony bought Gaikai and something you just can't seem to grasp.

There is a reason why Nintendo has constantly reinvented itself over the last 20 years and why Sony's PS5 is essentially the same device as the PS4 which was essentially the same device as the PS3 which was essentially the same device as the PS2, which was essentially the same device as the PS1.

Sony focuses on maintaining its market share in the area that makes the most sense. They're not going to drastically change the PlayStation, but they will make sure that they don't miss emerging markets at this point.

This is how Blockbuster failed to respond to Netflix, because it didn't believe in online streaming and didn't have the infrastructure in place in time to respond and that is what Sony is safeguarding against. They're not changing their business model or investing more than what is appropriate for returns.
 
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mibu no ookami

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Lol

@Nhomnhom

6 PC games

3 2/3rd party games soon to release on PC & or Sony doesn’t own ip or will do anything w the ip after 1 games

1 true singleplayer PS exclusive in 2024 that being Astro Bot AA, should have 2-4 player coop (day 1 pick up btw) which since it has so many PS ip ties it will likely never be ported to PC but knowing Sony I wouldn’t be surprised if Astro Bot got a Nintendo port

“Absolute massive year for any publisher” PS providing more games for PC players than PS players & its own platform. It’s down bad when we considering 2nd/3rd party games to fill in PS lineup. 2nd/3rd party games/ip are supposed to be the cherry on top of Sony own PS ip especially from key franchises.

Sony has matured as a business. Their business is no longer restricted to one plastic box. I get that makes a lot of fanboys angry, but it's the mature and successful business decision on their end.

If your measure of success is how many games they put on PS5 and select not to put on any other device, you're going to be pretty upset.

As a business though, not sure how you criticize them. They're making all the right moves.

I think that Lego Horizon should have been 4 player, but I don't know that there is necessarily any data to suggest that astrobot would have sold more had it been multiplayer or that that would mesh with the gameplay style of the game.

They would put Astrobot on PC before Switch, at least there you have the dual sense as an option.

More games on PC than PlayStation? How do you figure? What games have they released on PC that aren't already on PlayStation. You're a weird guy.
 

Kokoloko

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From the commentary, I can just tell a lot of people have never had any corporate jobs, because you don't understand how decisions are made.

Let's first start with PSVR(2). Sony has not put everything into PSVR2, they put enough resources and focus into it so that if VR blew up, they wouldn't be left behind. That doesn't mean SIE was ever going to overextend themselves into VR.

They had the ability to leverage PS5, but they're not all in like Meta is. If PSVR2 really hit off, you would see a lot of flat games incorporate VR modes to rise on the charts to differentiate themselves from games that didn't have VR modes, i.e. anyone who has a PSVR2 headset is far more likely to buy a game with a VR mode than one without one, but the numbers have to make sense.

You have to reach a point where it's a profitable investment to differentiate yourself.

Let's say Sony sells 1 million headsets. Assuming you guarantee 100% of people with the headset buy your game, does that pay for the resources it cost you to create the VR mode?

That calculation is largely why PSVR2 is struggling.

A lot of people pretend like there are no PSVR2 games. The reality is there are at least 210 released titles on PSVR2 in just over 1 year on the market.

PSVR2 is a hedge on the market so that another Wii situation doesn't happen. A hedge doesn't mean you go all in, but many posters here expect Sony to go all in on every product that they create. Business just doesn't work like that.

The PSVR2 costs 550 dollars and can only sell to an existing userbase of 60 million people. You can buy the Meta Quest 3 for as cheap as 500 dollars and play it completely stand alone. The existing market for it is as a result significantly larger than PSVR2's market combined with the PC market in general, that's an extreme advantage. As a result it makes sense for Meta to fund a significant number of VR titles themselves and develop their own VR titles.

The reality is the same people who are angry that Sony isn't putting more resources into VR would be furious if Santa Monica released a VR only game. And they'd be right to be, it just wouldn't be the best use of their time. VR hasn't taken off.

I still think Sony will triple down on VR and make a wireless PSVR3 when the time comes, because again, they don't want a Wii situation to happen.

The Eyetoy came out well before the Wii. Sony was already looking at motion control, but their implementation was pretty janky. The Wii set the world on fire and Sony responded with the Move, but it was late to market and still had a higher introductory cost than the Wii because you had to buy a PS3.

@Nhomnhom would have you believe that not porting rescue mission shows that they don't care, but he has no idea how many units of rescue mission sold in the first place and whether a port of rescue mission actually made sense or was a good use of time for a really small team.

@Gamernyc78 comparing the Vita and PSVR2 together makes sense on the surface, but their goals would have been entirely different.

PSVR2 costs 1050 as a starting point, the Vita launched at 250. The Vita had the ability to generate its own revenue at a much lower entry point.

@Kokoloko another example of someone not understanding how business works or budgets. Creating a VR team at every studio? What do you think that would accomplish exactly? How much effort do you think Sony would have needed to put in to make PSVR2 a success? Also please define success. How many units sold would have been successful?

How I define success for PSVR2

  • Help differentiate the PS5 from the Xbox Series
    • Same thing with putting out an access controller before Xbox
    • Same thing with the investment in Evo
    • Same thing with select exclusivity agreements in particular genres and marketing deals
  • Increase and maintain brand loyalty for people who bought PSVR1
  • Give Sony the option to pivot if VR took off like the Wii

Who died and made you an expert in the industry? Have you worked in the business side of the industry? Not that it matters much, they arent as smart as you think they are.

Every Studio might be too much, but how about having a few of your main studios make a game for you know…. A product you’re pushing and selling. You cant just rely on 3rd party making amazing VR games. And the best one they havent brought over with HLAlyx.

What would it accomplish? Your asking what would studios like ND, Insomniac, Santa Monica and others PS studios releasing games regularly do for VR do for PSVR?…
Are you gonna make a huge post trying to convince everyone how having less games from your main studios would help PSVR2, more than having them make games for it.

Having 4+ studios making there own dedicated VR games (this is some of the best studios in the world ) would help push VR gaming and its sales. You need to give people a reason to want to buy it. VR when done right, is great, but there isnt enough experience like HFAlyx or some of the rare other AAA games. Having top game developers working on it would help it in so many way. Instead of a small new team make Call of the Mountain and then not much else after.

Success for PSVR2 would be selling lots of units, lots of games and pushing VR into being more commercial spaces, and actually having more reasons to own it. And releasing some must have games for PSVR.
They came in under prepared, its not much to it
 
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mibu no ookami

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Who died and made you an expert in the industry? Have you worked in the business side of the industry? Not that it matters much, they arent as smart as you think they are.

Every Studio might be too much, but how about having a few of your main studios make a game for you know…. A product you’re pushing and selling. You cant just rely on 3rd party making amazing VR games. And the best one they havent brought over with HLAlyx.

What would it accomplish? Your asking what would studios like ND, Insomniac, Santa Monica and others PS studios releasing games regularly do for VR do for PSVR?…
Are you gonna make a huge post trying to convince everyone how having less games from your main studios would help PSVR2, more than having them make games for it.

Having 4+ studios making there own dedicated VR games (this is some of the best studios in the world ) would help push VR gaming and its sales. You need to give people a reason to want to buy it. VR when done right, is great, but there isnt enough experience like HFAlyx or some of the rare other AAA games. Having top game developers working on it would help it in so many way. Instead of a small new team make Call of the Mountain and then not much else after.

Success for PSVR2 would be selling lots of units, lots of games and pushing VR into being more commercial spaces, and actually having more reasons to own it. And releasing some must have games for PSVR.
They came in under prepared, its not much to it

I'm not sure I would claim to be an expert in the industry. I have studied the business end of the industry for over twenty years though and I've worked in several industries and in tech and management.

I can tell you that you measure how "smart" someone is based on outcomes and I measure people and things based on process. Which are two very different things. I think most successful managers today would tell you to build around process rather than results. Building good processes and good roadmaps will more often than not give you good results, but it's also important to understand variables outside of your control and what lessons to learn from those variables.

Sony has to ask themselves how much they want to invest in VR and what outcome they're looking for with VR. You've gone from all studios to 4+ studios, but you haven't answered the fundamental question. For every team working on a AAA Vr game, that's one fewer team working on a AAA flat game, so again you have to ask yourself is it worth it. What's the best likely outcome in investing 4 studios time into making AAA VR games? That you put out 4 hit games in a 6 year period? Is that enough to drive VR to the point of profitability?

You bring up Half Life Alyx, which you don't seem to understand isn't just a 3rd party game, but belongs to a platform holder. Why does Valve want to put Half Life Alyx on PS5/PSVR? What is the incentive for them to do so? Even that game based on data we have available struggled to sell more than 2 million units. It's not going to move the needle on PSVR2.

Having fewer titles on PSVR2 doesn't help PSVR2 but dedicating those resources towards more profitable endeavors, certainly helps SIE as a whole.

Again, what's the goal with PSVR2, and what would 4 more titles accomplish? What's a lot of units? You think they came in unprepared, but the reality is maybe your expectations are simply too high.

You know what would sell more PSVR2 units than 4 random titles? A significant price drop. Do you know why Sony hasn't dropped the price of PSVR2 yet?

What makes more sense spending 250-400 million of software development for PSVR2 or dropping the price of PSVR2 by 100 dollars, selling a million to three million more units and people buy existing titles like GT7, RE4, and Call of the Mountain, which are all net positive in cash at this point. Not to mention that spending that much money you could have generated a game that would sell 10+ million copies if it wasn't VR.

There's a reason they focused on a PC adapter BEFORE dropping the price permanently. They want to see how many people will buy PSVR2 on PC BEFORE dropping the price. Which is the same reason they aren't dropping the price of the PS5 before the release of the PS5 Pro and probably won't drop it before GTA6 releases.

Is PSVR2 sold at a profit? If so, how much of a profit? How many units at whatever profit it is sold at if any, does sony need to get a proper ROI? The reality is you don't care, because you don't see it from the business perspective, which is fine as a consumer, but to consider the PSVR2 as a business failure, when you don't know what they wanted out of it... doesn't add up
 

reziel

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Who died and made you an expert in the industry? Have you worked in the business side of the industry? Not that it matters much, they arent as smart as you think they are.

Every Studio might be too much, but how about having a few of your main studios make a game for you know…. A product you’re pushing and selling. You cant just rely on 3rd party making amazing VR games. And the best one they havent brought over with HLAlyx.

What would it accomplish? Your asking what would studios like ND, Insomniac, Santa Monica and others PS studios releasing games regularly do for VR do for PSVR?…
Are you gonna make a huge post trying to convince everyone how having less games from your main studios would help PSVR2, more than having them make games for it.

Having 4+ studios making there own dedicated VR games (this is some of the best studios in the world ) would help push VR gaming and its sales. You need to give people a reason to want to buy it. VR when done right, is great, but there isnt enough experience like HFAlyx or some of the rare other AAA games. Having top game developers working on it would help it in so many way. Instead of a small new team make Call of the Mountain and then not much else after.

Success for PSVR2 would be selling lots of units, lots of games and pushing VR into being more commercial spaces, and actually having more reasons to own it. And releasing some must have games for PSVR.
They came in under prepared, its not much to it
He's been an expert for months apparently for some odd reason though he's here on the forums with his bloat posts instead of helping the industry he knows so much about. The guy is craving attention at this point.
 
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Danja

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Why did Insomniac scrap their VR division once they were bought by PlayStation?? 🤔
 

mibu no ookami

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He's been an expert for months apparently for some odd reason though he's here on the forums with his bloat posts instead of helping the industry he knows so much about. The guy is craving attention at this point.

LOL, I've been proven right on things across multiple forums for decades, but sure...

The biggest difference between me and many posters here is that many people post from a fanatical perspective.

I could definitely have gotten into sales analytics, but that wasn't my direction and that's also not saying anything, that's not special or unique.

Let me try putting things in more simple terms and see if I can help bridge the gap here.

If you're an NFL front office and you draft a player in the 7th round and not only do they not make the all star team, they don't make your final 53 man roster, is that a failure?

When you talk about success and failure, the level of investment is just as important a part of the calculation as the return.

If I spend 800 million dollars developing a game and it sells 15 million copies, is that a success? An obviously extreme example, but I'm trying to frame things so that you guys can open your eyes a bit.

Again, you can take this from two perspectives, the business perspective and the consumer perspective, but if you're arguing about the business perspective, then there are rules to that kind of argument that you guys just aren't good at. And again that doesn't make me special, this stuff is basic level management.

You can be disappointed that Sony isn't making more games for VR as a consumer, but even as a consumer you have to recognize that the VR industry isn't booming and that it makes more sense for Sony to invest in other areas.
 

mibu no ookami

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Why did Insomniac scrap their VR division once they were bought by PlayStation?? 🤔

This is a GREAT question, worth talking about on a forum.

I'm not an insider, but I can tell you based on what I know about Insomniac and their history why they probably stopped making VR games.

Understanding their history I think helps to understand where they are now as a company.

From their early days they rented space from Universal Games (they were neighbors with Naughty Dog). Sony was an early partner with both studios, publishing their games, but their agreement with Universal meant that their IP was owned by Universal not them and not Sony. This was a pretty poor deal for the companies that didn't see Universal as a principal contributor.

They moved out and started working on IP that Sony would own. Jak and Ratchet. Soon after Jak, Naughty Dog sold to Sony, but Insomniac kept their independence.

Both studios looked to branch out of platformers on PS3 because platformers were waning in sales. Naughty Dog with Uncharted and Insomniac with Resistance.

Uncharted was a massive hit, but Resistance was not.

The lack of success for Resistance made Insomniac look towards other avenues for success. They worked with EA, Microsoft, and Oculus (as well as ios and android games)

So the question of why they even started making VR games was because Oculus wanted them to.

So to answer why they would stop is because while Resistance wasn't a huge success, Spider-Man was. Their VR games weren't highly successful.

Why would they dedicate resources and time towards VR that takes away from Spider-Man (or Wolverine/X-Men)? If Insomniac is able to sustain success making Marvel games through the end of 2030, it will have set them up as a Studio to do whatever they want in terms of size and scope.

Sony didn't buy them for them to keep making VR games.
 

Yurinka

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Why did Insomniac scrap their VR division once they were bought by PlayStation?? 🤔
Let's see:
  • Their mobile gaming and VR gaming experiments didn't sell a shit. So maybe at some ppoint thought it was enough
  • Before Spider-Man they also tried to make some AAA new IP with things like Fuse or Sunset Overdrive but weren't a big success. So maybe decided to stop making new IP for a while
  • Ratchet don't have stellar sales but seem to have good enough sales to be profitable. So kept making Ratchet from time to time
  • Marvel's Spider-Man was their best selling game by far, so pretty likely decided to focus on the Marvel goldmine
But who knows, maybe some day they decide to do some VR small project again, in the same way they also plan to work in a new IP in a few years
 
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Shadow2027

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I never got the push for VR2, they shut the vita down for selling 15 ish million units and made extra development platforms and pipeleines. Vr sold what like 3 million, and has only gotten more expensive to get into needing the console, no back compatibility of the library and no way to replace controllers.
People talk about needing to get profitability up. This is likely one of the sectors bringing it down
 

mibu no ookami

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I never got the push for VR2, they shut the vita down for selling 15 ish million units and made extra development platforms and pipeleines. Vr sold what like 3 million, and has only gotten more expensive to get into needing the console, no back compatibility of the library and no way to replace controllers.
People talk about needing to get profitability up. This is likely one of the sectors bringing it down

Again, it's not JUST about profitability. It's also about positioning.

PSVR2 put Sony in a position where they could pivot if VR took off in the industry. It hasn't taken off and PSVR2 probably sold less than Sony had anticipated, but it was also put out there to sell less.

They knew the price point of the Quest 2 before they launched. They haven't cut the price despite the Quest 3 release. They're not willing to take a hit on P/L just to sell a few more headsets. It's not that important to them.

Consumers see that as a failure, but as I mentioned if a sports team drafts a player in the 7th round and then cuts them, no one sees that as a failure. So what we have here is a misalignment of expectations.

What we'll see if Sony still feels as though they need to position themselves in the VR space moving forward. It's obvious what the PSVR3 needs to do in order to compete, but we'll see if it is worth it to them to ensure if this is future tech that they're involved.
 

Danja

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Let's see:
  • Their mobile gaming and VR gaming experiments didn't sell a shit. So maybe at some ppoint thought it was enough
  • Before Spider-Man they also tried to make some AAA new IP with things like Fuse or Sunset Overdrive but weren't a big success. So maybe decided to stop making new IP for a while
  • Ratchet don't have stellar sales but seem to have good enough sales to be profitable. So kept making Ratchet from time to time
  • Marvel's Spider-Man was their best selling game by far, so pretty likely decided to focus on the Marvel goldmine
But who knows, maybe some day they decide to do some VR small project again, in the same way they also plan to work in a new IP in a few years
My point was why kill off a division just as you moved to a platform holder that could use efficient VR support.

It's a failure on Sony's end and says more about how the view VR which is why I think they should kill it. They don't give a shit about it. Shu is the one who cares about the product and that's why it's still going.
 
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mibu no ookami

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My point was why kill off a division just as you moved to a platform holder that could use efficient VR support.

It's a failure on Sony's end and says more about how the view VR which is why I think they should kill it. They don't give a shit about it. Shu is the one who cares about the product and that's why it's still going.

What VR division? Why do so many people flaunt reality on this board? What was the division called? Who headed up the division?

Insomniac not working on VR games doesn't mean they closed a non-existent division.

You dream up scenarios in your head and you embarrass yourself in the process.

It's a failure on Sony's end that they didn't put resources into something that they didn't want to put resources into and that Insomniac didn't want to put resources into?

What are you even talking about...
 

Danja

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What VR division? Why do so many people flaunt reality on this board? What was the division called? Who headed up the division?

Insomniac not working on VR games doesn't mean they closed a non-existent division.

You dream up scenarios in your head and you embarrass yourself in the process.

It's a failure on Sony's end that they didn't put resources into something that they didn't want to put resources into and that Insomniac didn't want to put resources into?

What are you even talking about...
Google is free! How about you quit patrolling threads with your nonsense know it all attitude lol.
Insomniac had a VR division and that's all I'm a say. Go Argue with someone else who wants waste time with ya.