We Need To Have A Real Conversation About Starfield's Supposed Scope & Complexity

24 Jun 2022
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Starfield-FirstSteps_Wallpaper_5654x2763-01.jpg

So in the wake of the Starfield Direct, we've seen a good number of journalists and reports, not to mention fans, big-up the game and shower it with glowing praise, calling it a magnum opus, potential "Game of the Generation", and the most ambitious game to release yet for the new consoles.

Now, personally, I liked the Starfield Direct. I wish they had actual uninterrupted gameplay showing a whole gameplay loop, but I did seem some improvements over the 2022 footage namely in certain character outfit textures and framerate stability/framepacing. Some of the expanded looks into features like shipbuilding were awesome, showing off a lot of variety in how you can build a ship and how that build affects its performance as well as interior makeup. The space battles looked fun, and some of the planets with alien life on them look like they would be fun to explore and observe in a jungle safari kind of way.

But I didn't see anything that made me think "Oh wow! This is easily the most complex and ambitious game ever made!", and I saw nothing in terms of systems or complexity, nor in terms of visuals, that made me think the game NEEDED to be locked to only a 30 FPS Quality Mode option.

Let me clarify what I mean when I say complexity: it is NOT in terms of content scope AKA total amount of explorable content. And the reason why is simple: that's the easiest way to try defining game complexity and has been that way since the 1990s. If you make a 2D Mario game with 5,000 levels, is that suddenly more "complex" and ambitious than SMB3 simply because it has a crapton of more levels, but otherwise the actual game mechanics and level of simultaneously engaged systems remain the same? No! It just means you have a larger SMB3 with 5,000 levels. You aren't playing all 5,000 levels at once, your actions in one level aren't cascading in real-time onto the other 4,999 levels (or even maybe 3 other levels). You just have a larger playground to play in.

This is basically how I see Starfield. It is a larger Fallout set in space, with a lot more "levels", and maybe a few extra systems (such as the aforementioned shipbuilding), but otherwise has the same level and degree of simultaneously engaged systems & mechanics as previous titles like Fallout 4 or Skyrim. Your "playground" is much larger but your bucket of toys to play with in that playground is more or less the same in number of toys, and their complexity.

Now this isn't me saying that there aren't things of higher complexity in Starfield vs. Fallout 4 or Skyrim. They have a gravity system in place for your ship that runs concurrent to the gravity of outdoor areas, for example. There are more particle effects from gunfire here vs. say Fallout 4, meaning more particle calculations, etc. But when we get to other things such as number of onscreen enemies, scale of onscreen enemies, number of onscreen NPCs, NPC idle & walking/item interaction routines, animation systems, object physics, atmospheric weather systems etc., there is virtually nothing in the Starfield footage that looks leaps and bounds over other high-budget open-world AAA games already on the market. Because in some of those games, there is at least comparable or in some cases, more concurrently happening, in terms of the immediate locality and space of the player, on-screen both in terms of visibly observant and background systems.

Part of my conclusion here could be based on the fact the Starfield footage was not uninterrupted gameplay, but rather snippets of certain segments of the game with developer staff acting as transitions to them. Indeed if that is the case, then the blame wouldn't fall on me, rather on the way Bethesda chose to show off the gameplay with segmented cuts rather than as an uninterrupted gameplay sequence through a story mission or so. Maybe they couldn't show off a mission with all the mechanics revealed actually being a part of said mission, but that would also signal (to me) that the typical gameplay loop is probably less reflective of the impression of a gameplay loop the Starfield Direct presented. Regardless, it doesn't change what I've observed.

And let me also clarify: this is NOT the same thing as me saying Starfield is not complex or not ambitious. Several people, when I've mentioned this opinion in previous topics, interpreted it that way when I in fact said no such thing. Starfield is clearly an ambitious game, large in scope and with a great deal of complexity. However, I feel it is fairly easy to challenge the notion that it's "magnitudes" beyond some other open-world games on the market in that sense because when you look beyond simple amount of content, there is no evidence proving this magnitudes of increase is actually present.

To further illustrate this, I kick off from a point raised in Digital Foundry's Starfield Direct analysis. They spend a decent chunk of time defending Starfield having no console options beyond 30 FPS, and one of them related to object permanence. Specifically, they said that Starfield (and other Bethesda games) have to mark the state and location of every object a player can interact with, which in DF's eyes, contributes significantly to the complexity of the game and justifies locking it at 30.

In actuality, that is a false assertion.

The way they describe object permanence in Starfield's case is NOT one that increases the processing burden on the CPU/logic side for such a state of time that it would be a contributor to lower framerates. Noting the state and location of an object is as simple as getting the coordinates, a unique reference ID of the object (and any parent object(s)), the location the object was in, and some marker for its state. You can keep that data in RAM if it's going to be used again very soon, otherwise write it out to storage.

The actual math for this should not be that complicated; you can technically break down items to their base components in games like Fallout and I expect that to remain the case in Starfield, but those would be static objects meaning persistent asset instances can be created for said base components and loaded into memory, something other open-world games already do. It's not like you can actually break the objects in real-time, with per-pixel object deformation to calculate. There is no indication that's the case in Starfield and that is the only way in which DF's assertion regarding "object permanence" would actually be relevant to performance dictating a design choice for 30 FPS.

In other words, using "object permanence" as a buzz term may sound like a good enough reasoning to justify no performance options beyond 30 on console for this game, but it doesn't work as an excuse when you break down what the game is actually calculating with those object interactions. And this bleeds over to other aspects of the game, when I question the claims of "magnitudes more complexity" over other open-world games. Todd Howard says there's a planet in the sky and that you can actually travel there...cool. But, when I'm on the current planet, to me that planet you're saying I can go to might as well be a JPEG in a skybox. The vast majority of these planets are barren, so there are not a lot of systems in terms of plant photosynthesis, terrain deformation etc. to calculate. Not only is that not required, but I doubt it would be happening at all. Can I warp to that planet in the sky you say I can travel to? If I can't, then that planet might as well be a JPEG, load in the actual data from storage once I have my cutscene to travel to it. Is anything I'm doing on the current planet, having some real-time cause-and-effect on that planet in the sky I can travel to? No? OK then.

Hopefully in reading this some of you can understand what I mean in talking about scope in terms of complexity of systems and interactions between systems occurring concurrently. Systems that have immediate results on the screen a player can see and feel, as well as background systems that are informed by or help inform the ones producing those visible results. I also hope some of you understand that this is me not saying Starfield lacks such complexity in this aspect of scope; it is very much present and you would be a fool to say it isn't. However, I also feel it should not be controversial to claim that Starfield's degree of such scope in complexity is not "leaps and bounds" beyond at least a few other open-world games on the market, but rather at best on par with them.

Some of the hyperbolic takes around the gameplay footage feel a lot like fluff pieces to me, like an overcorrection in pouring praise onto the game (or like we've seen for the Xbox Showcase itself, and I say that as someone who still says it was better than the PlayStation Showcase) when they don't need to do so. Then there are the ones who want to posit that every other game on the market, or coming to the market aside from Starfield, is immediately a lesser experience. I would say, those are some wild takes fueled mainly by feelings more than anything factual, but I feel some of the misappropriated analysis from the media regarding the game's showing help fuel those wilder takes, and that's unfortunate.

I wrote this in hopes of counterbalancing that while still making sure to acknowledge the impressiveness of what has been shown of Starfield to date. Indeed, even amid the points mentioned above (and some specific visual downgrades that I avoided to bring up), Starfield is going to be a big game, and a big deal. It's the shot in the arm Microsoft needed after the disappointment of Halo Infinite, relative sameness of Forza Horizon 5, non-commercial cult favoring of Hifi Rush and disaster of RedFall. But we don't need to overinflate its importance or impact to show that excitement or appreciation.
 

Danja1187

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Fully agree with you! I think the media knows so much is riding on this project they all decided years ago this game was never going to fail. The future of a certain brand was hitched on this one game, the minute they were acquired and the game was taken away from PS5.

I expect a lot and alot of empty planets with a few maybe 20 - 30 major ones and a few smallers quests sprinkled out. The scope will be massive but the world of the game itself didn't impress me?

I feel like we still haven't seen how this game properly plays to this day, in a sense.
 
OP
OP
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
24 Jun 2022
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Reserved.

I won't have time to read this until tonight but I just wanted to assure that I will and vote afterwards.

Your posts / threads are always excellent Thicc!

Perfectly understandable, and glad you are enjoying the threads! I just had to talk about Starfield because I had a feeling some in the media were going to come up with narratives for it only having 30 FPS on console, or the supposed loading screens when entering buildings, etc.

I don't see why they can't express genuine excitement without downplaying some of the drawbacks or trying to hide them altogether. They certainly have no issue mentioning those with most other big games.

No Man's Skyrim. That's it, nothing else needs to be said.

Also: Fallout 4 in space. Personally I don't think either is a bad way to summarize the game or belittles it in any significant way. But that DNA runs strong in Starfield; too bad some are pretending it's a complete change of formula for Bethesda and doing things they (nor any other developer) have ever done before.

Fully agree with you! I think the media knows so much is riding on this project they all decided years ago this game was never going to fail. The future of a certain brand was hitched on this one game, the minute they were acquired and the game was taken away from PS5.

I expect a lot and alot of empty planets with a few maybe 20 - 30 major ones and a few smallers quests sprinkled out. The scope will be massive but the world of the game itself didn't impress me?

I feel like we still haven't seen how this game properly plays to this day, in a sense.

This is what bothers me some about the way the gameplay was presented. IIRC past Bethesda epics did in fact show full uninterrupted gameplay, I remember Fallout 4 did so.


Like just look at this. You can still see where there are transitions, yes, and parts are still cut up here and there. But it's WAY less frequent cutting away compared to the Starfield Direct, you have more time to actually "settle in" and get a feel for Fallout 4's tone, pacing, atmosphere etc. without trailer music blaring the whole time or various dev team members telling you a snippet of a feature before showing you a snippet of that same feature.

This is what I hoped the Starfield Direct would have been like, but since being acquired by Microsoft they've also picked up Microsoft's style of showing off fuller-form gameplay which is still in a pseudo long-form, but heavily chopped-up, style. Only games like Forza Horizon 5 really seemed to get big gameplay segments of uninterrupted gameplay prior to release, and that's a shame.
 
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OP
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
24 Jun 2022
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Congrats on writing a novel about how you fell for hype and PR bullshit!

Did you...actually read the post 🤣? If you did you'd see I'm questioning the people who are claiming it's the most ambitious and complex open-world game on the market, or supersedes others by magnitudes.

Never fell for any PR marketing hype, personally.

Can someone explain to me succinctly what's so ambitious about the game besides "1000 planets omg"?

Well, not really. There are neat things in the game like the ship building, the space battles, gravity systems, boarding other ships etc. But then the character creator models got simplified (quite heavily), there's load times to enter buildings (maybe just for the biggest buildings, but could be for small ones too who knows), etc.

Most people keep wanting to say the ambition is the amount of content; I'd say there are other games at least equally as ambitious in concurrent active systems with immediate player impacts, if not more so, on-screen.
 

anonpuffs

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Well, not really. There are neat things in the game like the ship building, the space battles, gravity systems, boarding other ships etc. But then the character creator models got simplified (quite heavily), there's load times to enter buildings (maybe just for the biggest buildings, but could be for small ones too who knows), etc.

Most people keep wanting to say the ambition is the amount of content; I'd say there are other games at least equally as ambitious in concurrent active systems with immediate player impacts, if not more so, on-screen.
Ship building is probably the most complex part of the game and it's been done before. Gravity systems? Are we really saying gravity is complexity? And tbh the space combat looks pretty basic so after all that shipbuilding (which I like) the payoff is going to be meh from what we've seen? Will there be capship fights? Big setpiece battles? No right? I like building spaceships but it has to lead to something. If you want to impress me then tell me there's an Eve-online like component to the game with player-driven markets and shit, and optional multiplayer space battles.
 

Vertigo

Did you show the Darkness what Light can do?
26 Jun 2022
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I have never played a shooter or action game of any kind that implemented legitimate zero g mechanics. Maybe I’ve seen some scripted set piece stuff somewhere but it’s definitely something new. Also guaranteed that after that trailer more devs are already working towards implementing it. Don’t expect much from gameplay here. Gameplay serves the world building in these games… it’s not an afterthought but it’s definitely not the meat and potatoes of a Bethesda game.

Procedural generation is sterile shit. I’ve tried it a bunch over the years. Still waiting for it to not be surface level nothingness. Lacking that hand crafted love of level design is not something exciting that’s for sure. That’s what I’m most skeptical of… and mostly because I expect it to be broken.

If this game delivers half its promises it’ll still be a monster for decades.
 

Danja1187

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Congrats on writing a novel about how you fell for hype and PR bullshit!
Damn, do you just go around this forum being a condescending prick? If you had nothing to contribute to a well written thread, stay the fuck out. Ironic, since you're the same one who was trying to call out another poster yesterday about lack of substance with their contributions...
 

Danja1187

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This is what bothers me some about the way the gameplay was presented. IIRC past Bethesda epics did in fact show full uninterrupted gameplay, I remember Fallout 4 did so.


Like just look at this. You can still see where there are transitions, yes, and parts are still cut up here and there. But it's WAY less frequent cutting away compared to the Starfield Direct, you have more time to actually "settle in" and get a feel for Fallout 4's tone, pacing, atmosphere etc. without trailer music blaring the whole time or various dev team members telling you a snippet of a feature before showing you a snippet of that same feature.

This is what I hoped the Starfield Direct would have been like, but since being acquired by Microsoft they've also picked up Microsoft's style of showing off fuller-form gameplay which is still in a pseudo long-form, but heavily chopped-up, style. Only games like Forza Horizon 5 really seemed to get big gameplay segments of uninterrupted gameplay prior to release, and that's a shame.

Agreed! Though I've never been a big of fan of Besthesda games or their world building / gameplay loop. But many like it. I can't get around the jank that comes with all their games. Starfield I feel still isn't in the best place technically and it was a careful crafted presentation to show what they wanted us to see and only that? Portions of the Gameplay they showed even seemed slightly sped up at times.


I'm sure it will be a good game in its own right, but I need to see more of the world and how they plan to keep exploration enjoyable.
 

Vertigo

Did you show the Darkness what Light can do?
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I actually hate what they did with combat. The ape’ing of the double jump hover style of Halo and Destiny is out of place and it looks goofy.

There’s some also some muzzle flash and that still looks bad on handguns and obscures reticle. It’ll be annoying for sure. I mean the shooter portion is whatever…

And why? This is a choose your own adventure game. Mowing down enemies is not what players often choose to do. In fact, I’m willing to bet most people play these games using the path of least resistance and avoiding combat altogether as much as possible.

Combat systems weren’t worth a shit before and not expecting it different now. Gameplay systems and builds in these games offer no real impact to gameplay. They just exist.
 

Zzero

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This is basically how I see Starfield. It is a larger Fallout set in space, with a lot more "levels", and maybe a few extra systems (such as the aforementioned shipbuilding), but otherwise has the same level and degree of simultaneously engaged systems & mechanics as previous titles like Fallout 4 or Skyrim. Your "playground" is much larger but your bucket of toys to play with in that playground is more or less the same in number of toys, and their complexity.
I'm sorry but what?No more complex than Skyrim? In combat? The jetpacks and procedural generation alone make it obviously so. Starfield probably isn't "the most complex game ever made", much like 999,999 out of a million aren't the millionth but its obviously a lot more complex than Skyrim. If you're saying stuff like this I have no choice but to also disregard everything else said since the disingenuousness has already been laid bare.
 

nongkris

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The reasoning I keep seeing from people is about "game logic" for Starfield being tough, though nothing in the Direct showed me anything extraordinary AI wise or physics wise.

But I also hear the same about how complex Zelda's open world is which I also don't agree with.

The only game that I would agree is highly complex from an AI and physics point of view is Rockstar games like RD2 and their NPC's living a daily life with high quality animations. Nothing I've seen from Starfield approaches that same feeling for me
 

riesgoyfortuna

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The moment they confirmed that planetary flight and landing or take off were animations i knew this was Just a fallout or skyrim with a space backdrop, and thats fine, i love these games but the amount of hipérbole and stupid hot takes from People that hype this game because its the great White hope of xbox its baffling, and to think they laugh at no mans Sky, game that its actually more a space simulation and exploration with thousand of little details who leave starfield to shame,fuck last time i Checked they dont have land vehicles on star field, correct me if im wrong