Who killed SEGA?

Yurinka

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You think MS will leave the console market? Unlike Sega, they can afford to keep making consoles. I think they have too much pride to leave. I think they won’t want people to think “little” companies like Sony and Nintendo pushed them out.
Yes, I think Series or their next gen console will be the last one.

I think they have been slowly moving their gaming focus to Windows, cloud and gamesubs (where their corporation is strong outside gaming), and also to becoming a 3rd party multiplatform publisher. They also have been moving all their main IPs to GaaS and are working to grow in mobile via ABK acquisition.

At some point they'll realize that putting all their games 'day one on GP' strategy didn't work to dominate the gaming subs/console market, and that putting all their games day one on PC is slowly killing their console. And in addition to this, AAA and GaaS becoming more and more expensive need a bigger and bigger userbase that won't be enough with their shrinking console userbase and PC.

So I think they'll stop making consoles (maybe they'll add some Steam-machines UI like for Windows) and instead focus on full multiplatform GaaS games for PC and consoles while also trying to grow in mobile via acquisitions.

Nintendo was set to be the next Sega. They continuously shrunk in the home console market not counting the lightening in a bottle Wii. Which is crazy since they have the strongest IP, but they forgot how important 3rd party is. Somehow it took them decades to realize that.

Luckily they still had a successful handheld business and decided to fuse their markets together so they could maintain a home console presence. Unfortunately that means the days of cutting edge Nintendo are long gone and we’ll forever be playing their games on tablet hardware.
Yes, with the exception of Wii+DS (in the weakest Sony home console generation), Nintendo was shrinking since the NES in the home consoles side and since GB in the portables, but were smart enough to merge their home console and portable business with Switch to have a single but stronger business.

They also were lucky that this happened at the same time that Sony stopped making portables, so Nintendo now had the portables monopoly, which made Switch stronger.

I think Switch 2 will be very successful but not as successful as Switch, because they'll need to face the PC handhelds, a nascent market that once it matures a bit more with new SKUs released in a few years they'll be able to have much more powerful handhelds for a not as expensive pricing as today and with the giant PC catalog that also includes emulators of every single Nintendo device.

I think Nintendo has two big assets: their IPs and catalog from legacy platforms that a lot of people bought. I think it would be smart to make playable on the new console the games you bought in the previous ones: letting you link your Switch, 3DS, DSi etc accounts and let you download and play all the digital games you bought there. Plus also to release an addon (connected via USB cable) that would let you use cartridges or disks from all their previous home and portable consoles.

Many people who bought in the past some of their consoles would see it appealing to have a way to play old games on the new device without needing to buy the games again. That also would free resources from Nintendo from having to port/remaster old games to the new platform, and they would be able to focus instead on making new games.
 
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Nhomnhom

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25 Mar 2023
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I'll tell you one thing, you clearly have an unhealthy obsession for Microsoft; I just didn't know conspiracy tin hats were one of them.
I tell one thing, if people like you are bothered by the mere mention of facts (MS was involved with Dreamcast and tried to push the DirectX API and Windows CE into it) then I'll make sure to bring them up.

dreamcast_windows-ce.jpg


Once Sega was out of the console business MS was there to occupy that space. Sega wanted the Xbox to be backwards compatible with the Dreamcast and MS said no.

Tale as old as time of a gaming company getting involved with MS and getting screwed.
 
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shocknero

Member
12 Jun 2023
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Yes, I think Series or their next gen console will be the last one.

I think they have been slowly moving their gaming focus to Windows, cloud and gamesubs (where their corporation is strong outside gaming), and also to becoming a 3rd party multiplatform publisher. They also have been moving all their main IPs to GaaS and are working to grow in mobile via ABK acquisition.

At some point they'll realize that putting all their games 'day one on GP' strategy didn't work to dominate the gaming subs/console market, and that putting all their games day one on PC is slowly killing their console. And in addition to this, AAA and GaaS becoming more and more expensive need a bigger and bigger userbase that won't be enough with their shrinking console userbase and PC.

So I think they'll stop making consoles (maybe they'll add some Steam-machines UI like for Windows) and instead focus on full multiplatform GaaS games for PC and consoles while also trying to grow in mobile via acquisitions.


Yes, with the exception of Wii+DS (in the weakest Sony home console generation), Nintendo was shrinking since the NES in the home consoles side and since GB in the portables, but were smart enough to merge their home console and portable business with Switch to have a single but stronger business.

They also were lucky that this happened at the same time that Sony stopped making portables, so Nintendo now had the portables monopoly, which made Switch stronger.

I think Switch 2 will be very successful but not as successful as Switch, because they'll need to face the PC handhelds, a nascent market that once it matures a bit more with new SKUs released in a few years they'll be able to have much more powerful handhelds for a not as expensive pricing as today and with the giant PC catalog that also includes emulators of every single Nintendo device.

I think Nintendo has two big assets: their IPs and catalog from legacy platforms that a lot of people bought. I think it would be smart to make playable on the new console the games you bought in the previous ones: letting you link your Switch, 3DS, DSi etc accounts and let you download and play all the digital games you bought there. Plus also to release an addon (connected via USB cable) that would let you use cartridges or disks from all their previous home and portable consoles.

Many people who bought in the past some of their consoles would see it appealing to have a way to play old games on the new device without needing to buy the games again. That also would free resources from Nintendo from having to port/remaster old games to the new platform, and they would be able to focus instead on making new games.
Issue here is how do they replace their console users? Xbox Series is the fastest selling console they’ve had and has zero actual exclusives. Not to mention almost non existent 1st party (Hopefully that changes going forward). Even if they somehow get Gamepass on PlayStation which seems very unlikely, they also miss out on their own revenue from their digital store. With Bethesda and if this ABK deals closes, GP will really start to drive more consumers to their platform and keep them engaged into their ecosystem where they are likely to spend more time and money.

The whole reason they went to PC/cloud and now mobile is collectively with all those streams combined they will be a top player in the e gaming space for the foreseeable future. They’re not gonna just cut one of those out.
 
24 Jun 2022
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I see a lot of votes for Sega of America, a little surprisingly to me. How much was late era SOA'S decisions derived from SoJ's insistence?

Well, SoA didn't do a great job with the Sega Technical Institute. Sonic 2 & 3 were the main notable games from them with long-lasting appeal, and they had a lot of Japanese staff on them (obviously). For those games, they also put out questionable content like Green Dog and Chakan: The Forever Man (great concept, super difficult with clunkiness adding a lot to that challenge). They had some neat stuff like Eternal Champions and Comix Zone but the former didn't get a legit good installment until the Sega CD version and the latter was a late-gen one-off. The Vectorman games were pretty cool, tho.

Also it was SoA that decided to focus on FMV games for the Sega CD, rather than expanded 2D games leveraging the CD format. That's why quite a few 2D Mega CD games were left in Japan. SoA were adamant in pushing for the 32X as well to act as an extension for Genesis since they didn't have a lot of faith in the Saturn, though 32X's failure can be equally placed on SoJ for greenlighting it and then giving them practically no support (they released it in Japan the month after Saturn's release, for example).

Once Bernie Stolar was hired, he completely botched Sega's relationships with several 3P including Working Designs, who were so pissed they pretty much went exclusively to PlayStation around 1997 or so. Bernie's also the reason for the 5 Star Policy which kept a lot of the best Japanese Saturn games stuck in Japan with no English releases or translations (this was pretty unfortunate for JRPGs in particular). And I think it was also Bernie Stolar who announced a $199.99 MSRP for Dreamcast in America, when SoJ were intending $249.99 (partly to make up for soft Japanese DC sales on hardware & software, and to not lose too much money on Dreamcast in the West hardware-wise).

So while Sega of Japan is mostly responsible for Sega's downfall as a platform holder, Sega of America aren't completely innocent here. I'd say it' maybe 7:3 favoring Sega of Japan.

Time frame for the release of both Saturn and Dreamcast felt stuck in between generations instead of launching alongside them.

I'd say that was more true of Dreamcast than Saturn, although I can kind of see how it fits Saturn as well. That system had an exceptional focus on 2D but not so much on 3D. Then again, Sega could not have predicted that affordable 3D for the home would've been a thing by 1995; they didn't think home gamers would've accepted 3D lower than Model 2 in quality, and felt arcades would have still remained the premier destination for 3D games.

In a sense they were, if you wanted the most cutting-edge 3D games out there (not counting PC). But Sega were wrong about gamers having low tolerance for lesser 3D in the home, just as long as it looked good. Unfortunately for them, Sony gave them affordable 3D that happened to also look better than what Saturn could've offered because the Saturn was primarily made for powerful 2D gaming. They were originally only going to offer Model 1-esque 3D with maybe support for some texture mapping, but had to hastily change plans due to PS1.

Nintendo were technically just as unprepared for 3D as Sega in a sense. Thankfully they lucked out and scored a contract for Silicon Graphic's 3D tech (that Sega passed up on). That afforded them a great means for home 3D even if they didn't have the in-house engineering skills for a custom 3D design at the time like Sony had.

Issue here is how do they replace their console users? Xbox Series is the fastest selling console they’ve had and has zero actual exclusives. Not to mention almost non existent 1st party (Hopefully that changes going forward). Even if they somehow get Gamepass on PlayStation which seems very unlikely, they also miss out on their own revenue from their digital store. With Bethesda and if this ABK deals closes, GP will really start to drive more consumers to their platform and keep them engaged into their ecosystem where they are likely to spend more time and money.

The whole reason they went to PC/cloud and now mobile is collectively with all those streams combined they will be a top player in the e gaming space for the foreseeable future. They’re not gonna just cut one of those out.

It WAS the fastest-selling. It is not the fastest-selling anymore, hasn't been since the start of this year, maybe even since Fall 2022. For the past six months they have been tracking at OG Xbox levels at best, and have seemingly only sold 2 million units in that time span. They'd need to sell 4.2 million the rest of this year to even keep up with OG Xbox's 3rd year on the market.

What I think Microsoft should do, is continue making Xbox hardware but moving the business away from the traditional console model. That would mean effectively turning Xbox into a PC NUC-style gaming hardware brand. It can be both mini-PC units optimized for gaming like various OEM NUCs with some expandability options (such as RAM, maybe SKUs with different CPUs, and of course SSD expandability options) as well as laptops. Move the Xbox hardware under the Surface division, I'm sure they can do some innovative stuff with them.

They could price the devices at good profit margins while still being very competitive with current OEM NUCs on the market (say $549 for a Series S equivalent or $999 for a Series X equivalent, or updated models released on the market today fitting their placements in the product line), wouldn't have to manufacture as many units (helps with production logistics), can have a perfect excuse to update the systems with refreshes every year or two, etc. They'd need to have them run full-fat Windows of course (that's kind of the point), but they can default to a gaming UI interface for a purer console-like experience (just let people switch out to the regular desktop afterwards if needed).

Meanwhile they can then be an actual multiplatform publisher; no more need to artificially hold content from competitors like Sony & Nintendo because under that new model, Sony & Nintendo would not be competitors. Of course technical limitations might still make some games exclusive to certain platforms (the next Flight Sim for example might initially be a PC exclusive, which under this new model would also make it an Xbox exclusive; the next Elder Scrolls may initially be only PC & PlayStation if a Switch 2 version would require additional resources post-launch to perform, etc.), but overall multiplatform would be actual multiplatform, and that means organic revenue for Xbox in addition to revenue & profits off of selling hardware that's actually priced to sell at a profit.

These changes would require Microsoft to be humble though...TBH I don't think it's Brad Smith or Satya Nadella who would be most resistant to this idea. I think it's Phil Spencer and the rest of Xbox upper management (maybe with the exception of Sarah Bond, since she's newer). They're the ones who seem to have a stick up their butt to "destroy PlayStation" at all costs (literally), and the fact you see them soaking up with some of the most hardcore & toxic Xbox fanatics speaks to that. Even if they got rid of Phil and the rest of Xbox upper management, though, who would they have to replace them? Maybe Pete Hines? Sarah Bond if she isn't as dead-set on "destroying" PlayStation as Phil, Matt, Aaron etc. seem to be? If they moved the hardware & devices side over to the Surface division, that would cover a lot of equivalent positions on the Xbox side, so that'd be good.
 
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JohnnyLove

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3 May 2023
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Very difficult to say, but probably dua to several factors. Before the Playstation, gaming was more of a niche and it was Sony that made the industry cool and mature. The PS1 has also spawned many new genres and legendary game series. I remember exactly when the Dreamcast came out and everyone was actually flashed, but everyone was still waiting for the PS2. The hype about the PS2 was just unbelievably big because of the PS1 and the games that are legendary to this day. Nevertheless, you can't blame Sony, they just did everything right without wanting to harm anyone, so the complete opposite of Microsoft. I think anyone would sacrifice the Xbox to bring Sega back to life. They have brought much more benefit to the industry.
 
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Gods&Monsters

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IF we have to blame someone else besides Sega then it's EA.

No sports games because Sega was fighting with EA. Years later, people are still using this fact but they say because Sony was blocking EA (?). It's all fake news, Sony was not involved at all in this fight.

 

Alabtrosmyster

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I think that if the 32x never existed things could have been much better... But that would not have fixed the Saturn in North-America, which the launch did not help, mostly because it ruffled feathers of some big retail partners.

Imagine if Sega would have been able to broker a deal to get the Square games in that generation.

Also, the last straw was probably how easily Dreamcast games were pirated, that just killed the retail sales and a much needed income stream. At that point they were weak to begin with.
 
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Systemshock2023

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Sega mainly killed themselves. Too many gimmick consoles no one wanted released very fast. Saturn wasn't supported properly a d by the time Dreamcast released the damage was already done.
Sony may have dealt the finishing blow with the PS2 but SEGA is mainly to blame since the late genesis days. In fact they could only compete with Nintendo due to them getting to market 3 years earlier and agressive price cuts.
 

Yurinka

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Issue here is how do they replace their console users?
Hiring people to put some order in their 1st party teams to make them more productive and raise quality, to release 3-4 great games per year it's a good start. It's embarassing to see that they can't achieve that having a gazillion teams.

In theory their plan is to release at least a big game per quarter, but always "the next year is going to be the first great one for Xbox" and we keep waiting.

Xbox Series is the fastest selling console they’ve had and has zero actual exclusives.
According to MS Series is selling worse than XBO, which sold worse than 360.

They released a few exclusives, but weren't good enough. Also, thanks to having them day one on PC and GP they underperformed in sales. Or at least weren't seen in sales rankings.

With Bethesda and if this ABK deals closes, GP will really start to drive more consumers to their platform and keep them engaged into their ecosystem where they are likely to spend more time and money.
The whole reason they went to PC/cloud and now mobile is collectively with all those streams combined they will be a top player in the e gaming space for the foreseeable future. They’re not gonna just cut one of those out.
With the releases of Halo + Forza Horizon 5 was the last time we know they grew GP. Seems to be stagnant since the start of 2022, meaning that the Bethesda acquisition didn't help them grow since then.

I think that MS may already achieved most of their potential GP audience, and most of the people interested to have GP to play Bethesda or ABK stuff may already be there.

I think that if they end acquiring ABK and they end including CoD there day one once their current deal with Sony expires and make it console exclusive (something I think won't happen) they may grow it a few millions more.

But I don't see GP growing a lot from where they already are vs their direct competition. I think GP will grow a bit, and that PS+ will also grow so they will continue with a 2:1 distance, which I think can become a bit bigger, as consequence of the distance in hardware sales becoming bigger.
 
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ksdixon

ksdixon

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22 Jun 2022
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Just like WCW killed WCW, Sega killed Sega. ( In the console space) It wasn’t their competition, it was their management incompetence.
I subscribe to the underhanded business shit selling it WCW to Vince who tried to bastardize it, but ultimately, begrudgingly, relys on it for nostalgia pops or to cover the shortfall of their own shit (until 2005 for both XB and WWE).

There we go. Phil Spencer wishes he was the Vince McMahon of gaming. Instead he's, what, Eugene?
 

Gamernyc78

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Sega committed Seppuku and I'm mad at them for it because I loved their hardware!
 
24 Jun 2022
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Very difficult to say, but probably dua to several factors. Before the Playstation, gaming was more of a niche and it was Sony that made the industry cool and mature.

This isn't 100% true. PC gaming had a lot of the mature crowd prior to PS1 if we're talking gaming as a whole, and Sega started the trend of marketing to older demographics with the Genesis/MegaDrive. Steve Race used to work at Sega before joining Sony; I'm sure he along others were influential in pushing SCEA to continue making inroads in the older demographics that Sega had started.

Though TBF, Sega mainly aimed at teenagers and seldom beyond that; those teenagers had grown a bit older by 1995 and Sony tapped into that as well as the young adult college crowd. It was really Wipeout tho that cemented their cool & hip image as that became a big staple in the European club scene at the time (and several prominent people from that scene directly contributed to the aesthetic of the Wipeout games).

The PS1 has also spawned many new genres and legendary game series. I remember exactly when the Dreamcast came out and everyone was actually flashed, but everyone was still waiting for the PS2. The hype about the PS2 was just unbelievably big because of the PS1 and the games that are legendary to this day. Nevertheless, you can't blame Sony, they just did everything right without wanting to harm anyone, so the complete opposite of Microsoft. I think anyone would sacrifice the Xbox to bring Sega back to life. They have brought much more benefit to the industry.

Another reason why people were just willing to wait for PS2 was because for pretty much most of 1998 and 1999, Sega had basically no retail presence in NA and Europe. A (literally) few Saturn games in '98 with very limited print runs (PD Saga, HOTD, MKR, Burning Rangers) and nothing in '99 for the West until Dreamcast's launch, was just devastating for them.

They lost significant mindshare in the West while Sony and Nintendo kept bringing out tons of quality games alongside 3P still supporting those systems but not Saturn.

I think that if the 32x never existed things could have been much better... But that would not have fixed the Saturn in North-America, which the launch did not help, mostly because it ruffled feathers of some big retail partners.

Imagine if Sega would have been able to broker a deal to get the Square games in that generation.

Also, the last straw was probably how easily Dreamcast games were pirated, that just killed the retail sales and a much needed income stream. At that point they were weak to begin with.

Actually, Squaresoft did consider developing for the Saturn that gen. However, they absolutely hated the dev kits and just the way the system was engineered as a whole. They found the PS1's design a lot better for their needs and well the rest is history.

I mean even Japanese 3P who did support Saturn like Capcom, didn't do any 3D games for it in-house. They outsourced to porting houses like Tose. Even Konami outsourced SOTN for Saturn and that was a 2D game (though the way it did the 2D on PS wasn't like "actual" 2D. They basically did it like how 2D games are done today with 3D graphics cards & chips i.e flat texture-mapped polygons. But back in the mid '90s having actual dedicated 2D hardware still made a notable difference).
 
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Alabtrosmyster

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I mean even Japanese 3P who did support Saturn like Capcom, didn't do any 3D games for it in-house. They outsourced to porting houses like Tose. Even Konami outsourced SOTN for Saturn and that was a 2D game (though the way it did the 2D on PS wasn't like "actual" 2D. They basically did it like how 2D games are done today with 3D graphics cards & chips i.e flat texture-mapped polygons. But back in the mid '90s having actual dedicated 2D hardware still made a notable difference).
I agree with the rest, but the idea that the Saturn was even better than the PSX at 2D does not hold water much. The benefits pretty much all come from the extra RAM built-in the system and especially the RAM carts, it's not about processing power and the quality of the 2D hardware.

They were mostly comparable machines, however the Saturn could not handle transparencies as well as the PSX, had no hw support for gouraud shading and it was harder to develop for. However the texture wobbling was less apparent on Saturn games, and the infinite plane allowed for interesting effects that just could not be duplicated on the PSX. Sega of America could have pushed that thing further in NA if they had tried harder.