They’re all Xbox fanboys that became PC fanboys. They’re still mad that PC made Xbox dead and irrelevant, and are now praying for PlayStation to suffer the same fate.
For the first time PlayStation Trophies will be available on PC.
- Thread starter TubzGaming
- Start date
We have the numbers and as you can see here, the biggest amount of money made by SIE is by selling "Game Software" on PS, particularly "add-on content" (mostly GaaS stuff) and digital games sold:
As you can also see here in the table, only a small portion of that of that "full game software" (so the "psysical software" + "digital software" sections combined) sold in PS4 and PS5 are "First party titles". Which means most of the games sold in PS are 3rd party.
2/3 of the games sold in PS are sold digitally.
They are not struggling, flopping or in the red.Even big publishers like EA, Take 2 or Ubisoft are struggling. One flop and they are in the red.
They have been increasing their revenue and profits since many years ago.
There's the unique rare exception for the current year for Ubisoft (who traditionally never has been as profitable as the others due to their huge manpower due to having a way bigger portion of outsourcing made in-house) and Take 2, because mostly due to the pandemic had to delay big releases and made some cancellations at the same time they didn't have big recent release plus other reasons like macroeconomics stuff and issues with the new ad policies in mobile making user acquisition more complex and expensive. In case of Take 2, they also have recent acquisitions costs. In both cases they have huge releases coming this/next year, which combined with some cost saving measures (like layoffs and cancellations of non-promising projects) will go back to grow again next year.
So their loses of the current year are a rare temporal exception because of the unlucky combination of many things at the same time.
Here you have their yearly revenue/sales from the recent years (adding Capcom, Square Enix and Bandai Namco as bonus) plus their profits.
Revenes/sales:
Their profits:
It is not.
Games development margins to PC or consoles are similar.
In fact console games should be a bit better due the ability of that market to maintain prices at higher prices than PC over the years.
What you mistake is the margins for a port... that is not exclusive to PC... ports indeed have high profit margins than new game development.
But ports can be done for PC to PS5 too.
Because the money from software is split between several parts.That's what I don't understand from Mibu or Yuri. They keep repeating the big money is made by selling software but we have the numbers and publishers are not these rich moneymakers. Even big publishers like EA, Take 2 or Ubisoft are struggling. One flop and they are in the red. Their revenue is tiny compared with platform holders like Sony, Nintendo or Apple. Activision was the biggest and it's nothing compared with Sony.
We are supposed to believe Sony becoming a third-party publisher on PC is this big accomplishment
From my ass the revenue split is something like that:
Platform holder: ~5% physical / ~35% digital
Retail: 25-30% (physical only)
Manufacturing and Transportation: ~5% (physical only)
Publisher: ~40-50%
Developer: ~10-15%
Remember that in this case the costs of development of the game and the marketing of it is in the publisher side... so that is why they get 50% of the revenue (it is a deal between developer / publisher... each game is a different deal).
If you discount these costs then you will see their profit is not that high.
In cases of developer funding their own game then the Publisher takes around 10-20% (all depend of deal between them... each case is a case)... most of the revenue goes to developer but they are the ones paying the game costs too.
People will ask... so self-publishing is the best option?
In most cases not.
Some indie developers shared Steam reports that shows that after having a publisher their sales increased over 1000%.
Others said their sales on Steam with publisher in 3 months is more than what they got without publisher in a year.
So even with a lower split having a Publishers seems to work better than without one... again all depend of the deal you made with the publisher.
Plus the marketing costs being with the developer, publisher or platform holder affect the splits too... it is all how they make a deal in the contract... the part that have more costs (marketing costs, development costs, etc) have more split.
There some odd deals too... like the developer will receive nothing or just a very small split until the development costs is covered... after that they receive a big part of the revenue.
The reason the profits margins are low to all parts is because game development is a hell of expensive.
Most of the revenue will go to pay the development bills no matter the part.
And remember even big successful publishers have games that they got big profit and others they got big loses... not all games are a hit and between a hit and another they are a lot of failures.
If a publisher can do a hit after other then it will become really that ideal of moenymaker.
But in reality that is impossible... game development is indeed risky.
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That's kind of the point that you don't seem to fully understand. They've already developed the game, eschewing the profit from PC just to satisfy fanboys like you, doesn't make sense. That's where margin comes from in business, is finding new revenue streams at little cost...
Revenue doesn't matter only profit does. A game can generate a billion dollars in revenue, but if it costs 400 million dollars to develop and advertise, and half the revenue goes to a company like Disney, your operating income from that game is only going to be 300 million dollars and you still need to put them money back into the business for a sequel that won't come out for another 5 years.
You don't think 30 million dollars is valuable to a company like Sony, but what you don't realize is all of these things add up over time.
Why is Sony releasing their own headphones? How much money do you think they make on headphones? Doesn't it eat into Sony Electronic sales?
The reality is that the Sony probably makes like 30-50 bucks on these headphones and they know that they have the first pick of the litter in terms of selling a headphone to a PlayStation consumer and that while that might mean they won't buy Sony electronic headphones, there was already competition from other manufacturers for that business.
I'm sure they're making more money off of their PC Ports than they are off of the Pulse Elites, but it's still high margin business.
Until you realize they make more money in 1 week from the PSN than 10 pc ports combined do in a year. Nixxes was a horrible acquisition, no one arguing in good faith can still say that was a good purchase in 2024 when we've seen how badly these games have bombed. And how those resources could've been allocated better to literally anything else, that would generate 10x more money. A remastered collection of Ratchet and Clank, Infamous, or Sly Cooper, would make 10x more money than every PC port ever has, while making the platform stronger, not weaker.
You still don't understand revenue vs operating income.
That simply isn't true
They're selling about the same and the PS5 was supply restrained for the first 2 years... PS5 missed its target because their target was record setting that they've never done before.
Sony - Don't expect any big games from existing franchises this year, we also haven't had a new single player game announcement since 2021 btw
Also Sony - We have 5 PC ports slated for this year
@mibu no ookami - "This idea that they're risking the platforms health is laughable"
What a goofball
How to downplay truth because you know you have no proper response to any legitimate criticisms. Accuse them of being a fanboy and continuing spewing corporate slave talking points. "No real impact on console sales", as they have to lower their targets
Is this the first year we haven't had a big franchise release from Sony?
No proper response? You're acting beyond clownish here. I've given you responses you just ignore them and live in your fantasy land.
Sony has had bigger and more PS5 titles launch aligned to the PS4, certainly more than the PS3 or any Playstation before the PS5.
Tell me a PlayStation console with more big 1st party titles in the first 3 years than PS5.
What the hell are you talking about here? The straw mans are absolutely getting crazy here.
Ports can be done from PC to PS5 too... okay what is your point?
The point we're making isn't that PC ports are magically cheaper than console ports... Sony isn't a PC developer they're a console developer. Of course their ports are going to be console to PC.
Sony has historically made console exclusives. Porting these games to PC, especially with a partner like Nixxes costs them little to nothing. The games sold on PC are pure profit for them and will continue to sell year in and year out, especially with transmedia strategies.
I think I'm done arguing this with you guys.
You're at best case delusional fanboys or worst case trolling.
The point is you are comparing Ports profit margins with new game profit margins and making dumb claims that PC profit margins are better than console profit margins that is not true at all lol
That's right.
You have a game. It exists... you already paid for it. If I tell you, hey you can get additional revenue from this game that already exists for little cost... it's a no brainer.
How is this difficult for you to comprehend?
So don't make false claims again...
Sony PC business is not only ports.
In fact most Sony PC business revenue come from games developed to PC and not ported to PC.
Ports are so small in revenue and profit for Sony PC Business.
Some of these few noisy doombringer haters are -I assume unpaid- supposed Sony fanboys who can't stand players from other platform to get some old ports of Sony games, and also post the same in this forum, basically in any thread remotely related to Sony PC stuff.
The majority of the feedback there, in other forums and social media to the trophies implementation in PC is positive. Many people is asking to implement cross-save next.
We saw the numbers and we know that it's a fact that PC ports of old games are very cheap (specially compared to the development of a new game) and have a huge ROI, so they are extremely profitable.
Regarading PC to console the ports are pretty cheap, too.
Regarding the average net revenue Sony earns for each copy sold, we saw numbers in Sony reports and leaked Insomniac stuff and yes, they are pretty similar. Obviously changes depending on a per case scenario depending on different things: game with a higher percent of digital sales have a better marging because of less costs, newer games have a higher margin because got less discounts/price drops and in case of console because of price increase for PS5 games.
But as I remember for both platforms the range was around $25-$35 per copy. I assume because the Steam cut in PS gets replaced by platform specific costs (like having to handle themselves in PS refunds/chargebacks/store server costs/support/payment platform fees/currency exchange/manufacturing and shipping for physical/etc) plus having stronger and more frequent discounts, more or less balancing the net revenue they get for the game after all these costs.
I assume that in the long term Sony won't be very aggresive with discounts in PC (at least until they have their own PC store) to keep the net revenue per copy pretty similar in all platforms.
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I exclusively play games on a console, but the reality is that the future is platform-agnostic. Some companies will be prepared for that and some won't.
I own a 4K bluray player. I bought it for 400+ dollars. I prefer a movie on disc because it's better quality and always available. Eventually most movies will be streaming only, though I've built up a decent 4K bluray collection.
Eventually all cars will be EVs.
Change happens and when it does you're either the windshield or you're the bug.
These guys are fanboys and they're frustrated that things are changing, so much so that they'll deny facts.
At the end of the day, I'm actually sad for them because so much of their identity is based on being a fanboy of a plastic box.
There's an alternative outcome that results in them getting a lot of good business on PC. If the storefront is successful and attracts 3P publishers, then they will have a monetizable audience that doesn't require them to subsidize a console sale.
Fixating on console sales is a very good way to get completely disrupted if/when the post-console era happens, MS is pushing its shills to say it's happening today (false), but that doesn't mean it will never ever happen.
(I do not believe Steam will always be invincible, they will have a bad time coming to them like it happened to all gaming platform holders with no exception).
This is the exact future that sony sees. And it's only the midterm future.
Eventually Streaming will take over consoles and PC.
1. Hardware ties you into the ecosystem
2. That ecosystem includes a subscription which will NEVER take off on PC. Major loss of revenue with that.
3. Major competitiin from 2 established storefronts. Sony has no chance.
And again, losing hardware leads to overall loss of revenue, especially since the PS5 is profitable. Then you lose access to all that subscription revenue which will not take off on PC.
And imagine the PR clusterfuck of charging console users to play online but not PC players.
This looks like their GaaS push. Poorly thought out.
And on top of everything else, you're playing into MS' grip on PC with Windows.
Something that people are pushing more and more against.
Other ways to sell subscriptions to PC users.
People were saying the same thing about Nintendo and Sega in 1994...
Once again, PS5s are not sold for profit and never have been.
The only people who care about stuff like this is fanboys. The general public doesn't care.
They've already released the biggest new GaaS game of the year...
This is just silly...
I do understand it, it’s a convenient cop out. If the only way you can make something look good is with a ton of caveats, then it’s probably not good
Lol this guy is trying to conflate peripheral sales with ports that flop. This is what I mean when you say a bunch of irrelevant nonsense to prop up your weak arguments.
PC ports are ok because it might make more than headsets?
Stupid logic. Even if that was true, peripherals are net positive cash flow because not only are they sold at profit, they also amplify engagement and strengthen the console. You know….where Sony actually makes 99% of their money from? There’s no downside at all to accessories. PC ports are the exact opposite.Yes it is, this is what I mean by you never give any proper responses. Idk why I even bother
The PS5 has no exclusives, so idk what you’re talking about. It’s probably why they’ve missed their targets. They’re extremely lucky Xbox is awful and GTA 6 is coming to bail them out.
I agree. I play mostly on console, with some rare case of playing on PC (most cases being -mostly indie- games made by some friend of mine who shared a code that happened to be from PC).
But I also think the future will be platform agnostic due to several reasons:
- Rising costs of developing big games is forcing even platform holders to go multiplatform because need extra revenue to fund such expensive budgets, and on top of that companies alwys want to keep growing
- Most popular game engines highly reduced the work needed and difficulty to make ports or multiplatform relesaes
- The PC, console and mobile keeps converging on a single type of hardware that gets more similar (specially when a mainstream player sees the differences) every generation
- Steaming related tech and quality keeps improving, will become way more popular in severaal years from now
- Users are used to enjoy their digital entertainment on any screen (twitch, youtube, Netflix, Disney+, spotify etc) so they will end expecting the same for gaming: get your game and play it anywhere
- Sony plans to allow you to play in the cloud the PS games you bought, and has a tradition of crossbuy/BC with their digital games of the platforms they support
Then in some devices like tvs or very low-end phones, tablets, handhelds or PCs you'll be able to play them there only via cloud.
Basically I think the idea will be: "buy it (or rent it via game sub) once, play it anywhere".
Regarding "plastic boxes" I think hardware brands will continue making their own devices optimized for gaming, in the form factor of home consoles or portable consoles even if internally they will be (in fact, they already are) PCs or tablets with gamepads attached. Plus VR/MR headsets, which I think like cloud gaming will become more popular in the future as they keep evolving, but will continue being a minor part of the gaming market.
Sure, games like GoWR, GT7, Spider-Man 2, FFVII Rebirth, Granblue Fantasy Relink, Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade etc. plus all the non ported to PC games from PS4 and PSP1/PS2/PSP don't exist.
They should be an annunaki or Illuminatti conspiracy or something.
The factual data says MLB, GT7, Destiny 2 and Helldivers 2 are very successful GaaS.
And they have very successful, experienced and talented best in class people working in most of the upcoming ones they have, so very likely they will be very successful too.
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No, your investment into digital games is what keeps you in the ecosystem, that's why there will still be Xbox players even after MS goes 3P. And that's why you see Steam players going full-blown angry over devs and publishers taking the deal to go with Epic despite it requiring no hardware change of their own.
Why are you assuming that Steam will keep assuming the costs of cloud/servers/etc forever? Nothing is forever and the only constant is change.
It's more than 3, and Sony does have a chance. Same thing happened with Nintendo/Sega.
Sony can easily sell Subscriptions on PC, the value offering just has to be adjusted is all.
Who said anything about charging for online for PC players, Sony and other console makers do this because they subsidize hardware and need to bring the money back.
Yet they already started out by launching the hit of 2024 (Helldivers 2).
They can easily have Storefronts on Mac/Linux if the audience is there. They don't have an OS offering they need to expand, so they shouldn't have to care about this.
Losing hardware means losing loses generated from hardware. The PS5 hardware isn't profitable, it's sold at a loss.
The game catalog and user game library it's the main thing that keeps people attached there. Same as with Steam. Games being sold for that storefront/ecosystem is what gives them most of the money, and now it's attached to their console.
Their console (and more particularly its storefront/library) continues being by far their main revenue source and it's only available on their console, so will continue being the main one until at least 10 or 20 years from now.
They need to expand their business to new markets, so are expanding to PC and mobile. First they release games there, later they expand their storefront/library to include these platforms too and later will continue expanding their back catalog from console there. But it will take many years.
Many others will be doing this. MS and Epic are suing Apple and Google to do it on mobile. Make sure sooner or later Sony will end making their own PC store, and when possible also their mobile gaming store.
Many years in the future, there will still be new and old console exclusive games, and players who will prefer the experience of playing locally high end games on a tv for an affordable price. Or a well made portable. So hardware companies like Sony or Nintendo will continue doing gaming hardware.
Sony is the most successful player in consoles, they have the biggest catalog and 3rd party support. For many top 3rd parties, the PS ecosystem is their main platform. They are not the last one in the race like MS, or cases like EA/Ubi/Riot/etc. They have way more chances when competing against Steam in PC, specially if they use their console catalog (including 3rd party and the games from previous generations) and console user libraries on their favor.
I mean, imagine that in the future if you bought a game in a platform agnostic PSN once (or get it with PS+) you can play it natively in PS, PC (including handheld ones) via the cloud in PS, PC, phones, tablets and smart tvs. With your progress shared across all platforms seamlessly. And that applying to the all available digital catalog of all generations of PS home and portable consoles, which features hundreds of games not available on Steam.
Most people don't care because they already get the game sub mostly because of the games. And on top of that they have other perks like the online MP for console, discounts, cloud games etc.
They are studying options about additional game sub content that may be appealing for PC or mobile users, with the idea of to also expand the game sub there. Not only gaming stuff, they are consideing to include there non-gaming content from internal or external services.
If the paid online becomes an issue they could make it free. In the same way they improved orther PS+ things every generation (as this was one merging it with PS Now to make the different tiers adding a download only PS Now one, improving the cloud gaming quality, etc).
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The trajectory is the same. The same way Microsoft "expanded" Xbox beyond the console at the ultimate expense of the console, Sony are expanding PlayStation beyond the console but are running into potentially similar issues.
If the results are different, it's because Sony have been successful at other aspects throughout the path, but that's in spite of things. We also haven't had enough time to see if certain choices will have longer-term consequences or not. And even beyond that, PlayStation as a brand is much healthier than Xbox has ever been, globally, so even if trajectory of erosion is the same, the scale of erosion will be smaller.
Helldivers 2, Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade and Death Stranding 2 are 2P deals IMHO. In some cases Sony owns the IP rights (Helldivers 2), in some cases they don't (Stellar Blade), but in all cases the development is being done by a 3P studio in collaboration with SIE, or in some cases XDEV.
It should be obvious when I speak of 1P, I mean specifically from internal studios, not external ones. I respect the 2P stuff they're doing with external studios, but 1P stuff from internal studios is what's being questioned here.
That's if there's a Showcase or SOP in May or June. Nothing's guaranteed and I'm ignoring all rumors related to those events going forward.
If plans have not been changed, the Nvidia leak shows that GT7, GOW Ragnarok, and Demon's Souls are all slated for PC ports. I would not be surprised if Sony confirm one of those as a silent/small announcement around the time they reveal the PS5 Pro, just to bury the news with the Pro's announcement.
Otherwise, again unless plans have changed, I would expect one of those others (likely GT7) to get a PC port before the end of this year. GOW Ragnarok could also end up with a port before the end of the year. Demon's Souls and Spiderman 2 would likely get 2025 ports, and that would mean all of Sony's 1P AAA games are on PC just a few months after the Pro's release, and before any new 1P or 2P AAA exclusive comes to a PlayStation console.
No, I already clarified to you how actual game development works. Devs don't do "all" of the programming on PC and save the devkits for the final step. They iteratively go back-and-forth between PC and the devkits. The PC is used to write the code; the devkits are used to compile and run the code, debug etc.
Then the devs go back to adjusting the code on PC and adjusting assets like textures, meshes etc. and placing them in appropriate folders before compiling the code again and running on the devkits.
PC is not used in the way you keep insisting it is, otherwise there's be no reason for devkits or especially devkits provided way ahead of time super-early in the dev process.