Is crunch in gaming acceptable?
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It depends on how long. Crunch is normal for production studios but the crunch that my friend had to endure at ND was horrendous and the reason people always leave after a new release. He was 16hr days for 1 yr. Morale was horrible.
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Sounds like fake concern narrative just in time to try and kill God of War hype. And even if its not fake concern, its pointless concern.
MS literally doing everything to cause a stir now days when PS has a big game coming. This has been a strategy since TLOU2
MS literally doing everything to cause a stir now days when PS has a big game coming. This has been a strategy since TLOU2
If @VFX_Veteran @Aeorath + @kyliethicc are all game developers, i think Crunch is more than acceptable.
The more they work, the less i have to see them on these forums
WIN-WIN situation as far as i am concerned.
The more they work, the less i have to see them on these forums
WIN-WIN situation as far as i am concerned.
This is 100% correct, I worked on projects where there was months of downtime and I was still paid. My crunch times were between May and September where I could work well into the early mornings. I knew these were the times I had to pay for all the month of having nothing to do and still getting paid for the times they actually needed my skills.
If crunch is for a year or more then it's bad project management and that's what should be called out not the people putting in the effort to get something shipped ontime.
If the overtime work is forced and not rewarded, then no, it's not acceptable.
Also health and work-life balance should never be affected by it.
But it's not a problem exclusive to gaming.
In fact, as a "normal" dev I've seen "crunch" a lot of time. But never exaggerated, because of laws here in Germany to protect employees.
What I've also noticed: usually the people working more for longer periods of time, are the less skilled ones, because they aren't able to finish what's expected from them within the regular working times.
Also health and work-life balance should never be affected by it.
But it's not a problem exclusive to gaming.
In fact, as a "normal" dev I've seen "crunch" a lot of time. But never exaggerated, because of laws here in Germany to protect employees.
What I've also noticed: usually the people working more for longer periods of time, are the less skilled ones, because they aren't able to finish what's expected from them within the regular working times.
Don’t really have experience with crunch in the tech industry but we do have non-paid overtime/longer holiday hours where i work.
I also have a feeling there are different levels to “crunch” where some people are ok with working a bit more on something they’re personally involved with and others dying to get home to their family.
Then theres severe crunch which has the entire team, especially QA testers being worked to the bone for weeks or months. Its not really healthy and I think as fans if you want to see the studios you love remain intact then the burnout the devs face from crunch should be something you’re concerned about.
Naughty dog isn’t gonna continue to grow and make multiple games if a large amount of their staff leave for green pastures once a project in wrapped and they’ve realized that which is why they’ve restructured so much.
I also have a feeling there are different levels to “crunch” where some people are ok with working a bit more on something they’re personally involved with and others dying to get home to their family.
Then theres severe crunch which has the entire team, especially QA testers being worked to the bone for weeks or months. Its not really healthy and I think as fans if you want to see the studios you love remain intact then the burnout the devs face from crunch should be something you’re concerned about.
Naughty dog isn’t gonna continue to grow and make multiple games if a large amount of their staff leave for green pastures once a project in wrapped and they’ve realized that which is why they’ve restructured so much.
Crunch isn't. Long development times are fine, but not when paired with "Sony secrecy".
But I want real dev diaires and such keeping me informed about a game. You can tell me "we've turned the game around and starting over step one", objectively bad news. My first question would be "OK, why?" "well this wasn't working, this is how we're going to rethink this game. Leftover elements may be refined and revisited in sequels or other series".
Sony should refine its in your face unused cards system, and make better use of the media content that gets pushed to PS5 when you "follow" a game.
But I want real dev diaires and such keeping me informed about a game. You can tell me "we've turned the game around and starting over step one", objectively bad news. My first question would be "OK, why?" "well this wasn't working, this is how we're going to rethink this game. Leftover elements may be refined and revisited in sequels or other series".
Sony should refine its in your face unused cards system, and make better use of the media content that gets pushed to PS5 when you "follow" a game.
No one should work more than 12 hours per day, its just unhealthy.
I'm really not a "Free market" guy but I believe as long as time and a half is paid, that jobs with tons of OT represent just a different part of that job market, one where you can make more money w/ the same skills.
I think it's good overall that there is a push to at least make this stuff as optional as possible, but for a lot of people crunch is a way to get wealthier than possible w/o it.
In the contract development industry outside of gaming clients that will pay for over 40 hours (time and a half is standard) are some of the most sought after. That's why the whole convo is so interesting to me.
I think it's good overall that there is a push to at least make this stuff as optional as possible, but for a lot of people crunch is a way to get wealthier than possible w/o it.
In the contract development industry outside of gaming clients that will pay for over 40 hours (time and a half is standard) are some of the most sought after. That's why the whole convo is so interesting to me.
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Im talking in general, youtube, reddit, twitter. Everyone is on about crunch and God of War all a sudden.
Alot of them are fake xbox fans being “concerned.”
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Well, I'm definitely not there.
This is a good approach. Again, if completely optional and paid, I don't see it even as crunch. I would see it more as an opportunity to make more money. That's all.
You have no one else to balme for these bogus stories that harass and belittle developers than one Jason schreeir, the meek, nasally-voiced communist who thinks everyone should be as lazy and inept as him, and get free money in the process.
these toxic 'games journalists' personalities are all just trying to be activists. they don't care about games, it's all a giant sham.
get off your ass and get to work, or stop harassing those who do.
these toxic 'games journalists' personalities are all just trying to be activists. they don't care about games, it's all a giant sham.
get off your ass and get to work, or stop harassing those who do.
As someone who worked almost 20 years as gamedev, I think:
I have friends in AAA, mobile or indie teams who do crunch, other ones who don't, and other ones only some small overtime from time to time as we had.
- Bad/evil management sometimes cause or force crunch, but in most cases this isn't the main reason and they can't control it
- There are multiple possible causes for crunch
- Good management and planning isn't enough to remove or reduce crunch
- Game development is a creative field where each team and project is different, there are no magic rules and a ton of unexpected, unpredictable, unavoidable issues during development
- In some cases there is no budget or finantial options to avoid or reduce crunch by hiring people, delay, cut content or outsourcing
- In many cases you're also forced to achieve some dates not controlled by the devs/managers/planners (promised to publishers, first parties, marketing campaigns, investors etc and to don't achieve them would mean huge penalties that could kill the project or the studio)
- Some old school management crunches by default because they think it's the only way to release stuff and at the quality level to compete against a super talented competition
- Some young or very passionate staff wants to crunch (and does it voluntarily) because they are very perfectionist and ambitious, love doing their work and has no responsabilities like family and so on
- Many devs are successful at working with no crunch, many other ones instead crunch in every project
- The worst cases I heard are stories of 80+ hours/wek during over 2 years for huge AAA games. In most cases I heard crunch is ~60h/week during 6 or 9 months. Sometimes ~3 or ~12 months.
- Studios who don't crunch are more productive, have less burnout and more worker retention than those without crunch
- Long term huge crunch causes physical, mental and social issues. So I suggest to avoid or reduce it as much as possible if and when possible
I have friends in AAA, mobile or indie teams who do crunch, other ones who don't, and other ones only some small overtime from time to time as we had.
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