It looks like ND has accepted the grayzone in the end of The Last of Us
- Thread starter Alabtrosmyster
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TLoU ending is just the gaming version of the trolley problem, with a few issue of execution.
The Fireflies in TLoU are not very convincing and how sure they are about the vaccine is contrived making it pretty easy to side with Joel.
It was no supposed to be any clear right thing to do. TLoU Part 2 tries to fix this by making the Fireflies look more competent but then people got mad because it's a retcon and they can't get over that Joel was never supposed to be seen as a hero.
The Fireflies in TLoU are not very convincing and how sure they are about the vaccine is contrived making it pretty easy to side with Joel.
It was no supposed to be any clear right thing to do. TLoU Part 2 tries to fix this by making the Fireflies look more competent but then people got mad because it's a retcon and they can't get over that Joel was never supposed to be seen as a hero.
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For me it doesn't really matter. Joel team all the way. With vacine or not.
That's not the point. When I first played I was along with Joel all the way, shit situation but he never came off as a hero. He is a selfish and damaged dude capable of doing fucked up things to get his way.
He is the strongest part of the first game, very well set up and consistent protagonist.
The point of TLoU ending, is that you are not Joel, you play as Joel but Joel would always act like that. You don't get to chose, he is not the hero, you are not the hero, you are not Joel.
TLoU Part II is the same way, neither Ellie, Abby or Joel are heroic in any way nor are their actions supposed to be aligned with the players most of the time.
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OP
OP
The problem I have is with the word selfish, the whole game is built around him being (or becoming) selfless. Even saving Ellie, because honestly who could know in advance how some highly experimental drug treatment would turn out, even in the best of circumstances... He risks his life to get her out of the hands of shady people (sorry, this is how the fireflies act, I would not have trusted them beyond taking blood samples — and MAYBE a biopsy).
That's the problem with the ending in a way. The way the Fireflies are so aggressive kinda alleviates a little bit of the weight of Joel's actions. But that clearly was not the intention.
The fact that you see a clear answer is a flaw of the game.
Regardless of that Joel is never portrayed as a good guy if you pay attention. He is extremely selfish, ruthless and traumatized.
I love the first game btw, this is not me taking shots at it.
He is a hero, not a traditional hero, but he definitely is a hero.
Definitely not the hero, you mad. You need to pay attention to the game.
This is like thinking Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver is the hero just because he tries to save the girl.
Joel is a classic anti-hero if anything.
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Not really, the fireflies are a regular revolutionary type group, most are no better than whatever tyrants they are fighting to replace.
However, they must be the way they are to setup the ending properly. If they had been straight forward all along, seemed nice or even just neutral when they found Ellie and Joel, and not attacked them it would not have been credible to be that violent.
Then Abby is the hero to any daughter.The hero, to any father.
Do you think Ellie is a hero? You are tripping.
That is what I'm acknowledging, the Fireflies seems way too stupid and aggressive to fit what the story was going for.
When you read a Punisher story he is not supposed to come off as the hero, if that happens it sort of is a failure from whoever is writing it.
In the first game sure (she is just a girl fighting for her life when you play as her), in the second no way.
I bet you could ask Neil Drukman the guy that wrote the game and he would just tell you that he did not intent to have Joel come of as a hero. That also explain the disconnect part of the audience and ND have when it comes to Part II.
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I don't think anybody is setup as a hero, if I had to pick one it would be Joel.
Ellie and Abby in TLoU 2? Well, they are on revenge quests, I don't think that making them heroes was the intent to begin with.
That's diminishing her role in the first game, just a girl fighting for her life?
Yes? You play as her in very few sections, where she is literally fighting for her live against rapist/cannibals/infected. If you wan't to count that as heroic, sure.
The other section you control her she is just walking for a few seconds.
Not every story needs a hero and if anything some of the most interesting stories don't have them. Joel is a brutal guy that will do anything it takes to survive, including torturing and cold blood murdering people. Does that sound like a hero to you?
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What are you even saying? I have no problem with her been seen as heroic since all she does is in self defense, Joel is the one who isn't a hero by any means.