It looks like ND has accepted the grayzone in the end of The Last of Us

[Nhomnhom]

The Fireflies were garbage. Joel is the hero and everybody loved him until they tried to retcon him into a bad person because "he lied". They totally failed, even in the TV show people like Pedro and see him as the hero.

2012:

https://gamerant.com/the-last-of-us-joel-not-a-hero/?newsletter_popup=1

Troy Baker: “Joel is a survivor. He’s not a hero, he’s not a badass. He’s a guy that learned how to use a gun because he had to, and he’s fighting every day because that’s what you do. Does that mean that [he] steals this, that [he] does this? Maybe. But it’s not that he has a plan, or that he’s a strong archetypal character. I really think it’s gonna turn the model of the hero on its ass.”

Come back to reality.

The fact people see Joel as a hero say more about them than about the writers of the show.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Joel is not the hero of the whole story. He's the hero from Ellie's point of view. He murders a doctor in cold blood and ruins the chance for a vaccine because he lost his daughter and didn't want to lose Ellie. That's not a hero.

The same way the fireflies are not heroes, they are willing to sacrifice a child without telling her, they are unwilling to let Joel say goodbye which triggers his response.

That's the whole point of the second games moral: you're the hero in your own story, you're the hero depending on the point of view, but neither of those make you the hero.

He is not the hero from Ellie point of view lmao. Even if in the end she ends up starting to forgive him she still clearly hates what he has done and has a hard time dealing with it.

 

[Satoru]

He is not the here from Ellie point of view lmao.

For most of the first game? He is. He is her father figure and the person that is struggling to keep her safe. The only reason she semi buys the bullshit he sells her at the end is because she unconditionally trusts him because to her, he's a "hero". By the way I'm using hero in the literary sense, don't give it any more meaning.

You can keep the lmao off if you want to have a conversation about it and disagree.

 

[Nhomnhom]

For most of the first game? He is. He is her father figure and the person that is struggling to keep her safe. The only reason she semi buys the bullshit he sells her at the end is because she unconditionally trusts him because to her, he's a "hero". By the way I'm using hero in the literary sense, don't give it any more meaning.

You can keep the lmao off if you want to have a conversation about it and disagree.

He is until he isn't. So he isn't. Even child Ellie understand that Joel is sort of fucked up in terms of how violent and coldblooded he is.

She pretends to buy the bullshit he sells because she doesn't have much choice, he is all she has (as soon as she can she actually start to move away from him). Not to mention that she asks a rhetorical question to see if he was going to at least tell the truth and then she is clearly disappointed that he doesn't.

It's also perfect that Joel lies, that's exactly what Joel would do.

 

[Satoru]

He is until he isn't. So he isn't. Even child Ellie understand that Joel is sort of fucked up in terms of how violent and coldblooded he is.

Is there any point in the story where that is made apparent? Because I don't think there is, and I've completed the game and left behind multiple times.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Is there any point in the story where that is made apparent? Because I don't think there is, and I've completed the game and left behind multiple times.

"Jesus Joel!"

She acts like that over the course of the game and learns to become violent just like Joel. Precisely the reason why she is ridiculously violent in Part II.

 

[Alabtrosmyster]

Nathan Drake is not a hero, that is the biggest flaw with early Uncharted that Uncharted 4 at least acknowledges to it's credit.

I don't want that paternalistic approach to video games, or their "analysis".

Especially uncharted, the games are meant to be fun adventures where you hunt treasures and get in the way of really bad people... So you stop them while you get your artefacts.

If heroes have to be deliberate.. well only superman and the likes count.

 

[Alabtrosmyster]

He is until he isn't. So he isn't. Even child Ellie understand that Joel is sort of fucked up in terms of how violent and coldblooded he is.

Joel would not work as a character if he was cold-blooded. He is violent, but the motivation is never violence for violence sake. He takes no pleasure in it.

Now, his brother is arguably taking the high road by trying to build a society where there is a level of trust (even they have to be very violent with strangers that come to the village).

 

[Nhomnhom]

I don't want that paternalistic approach to video games, or their "analysis".

Especially uncharted, the games are meant to be fun adventures where you hunt treasures and get in the way of really bad people... So you stop them while you get your artefacts.

If heroes have to be deliberate.. well only superman and the likes count.

Maybe you don't need to always play the hero, why does it bother you if people don't consider the main character a hero?

Joel would not work as a character if he was cold-blooded. He is violent, but the motivation is never violence for violence sake. He takes no pleasure in it.

Now, his brother is arguably taking the high road by trying to build a society where there is a level of trust (even they have to be very violent with strangers that come to the village).

He is cold-blooded. He tortures and execute people, not always in self defense, it comes of as second nature to him probably because he has been doing it for a long time at that point.

I never said he enjoys it, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do it.

 

[anonpuffs]

Joel would not work as a character if he was cold-blooded. He is violent, but the motivation is never violence for violence sake. He takes no pleasure in it.

Now, his brother is arguably taking the high road by trying to build a society where there is a level of trust (even they have to be very violent with strangers that come to the village).

Coldblooded doesn't mean sadistic, it means that he doesn't think twice before ending a mofo. And he doesn't. It also doesn't mean "a bad person" so you don't need to get defensive.

 

[Satoru]

"Jesus Joel!"

She acts like that over the course of the game and learns to become violent just like Joel. Precisely the reason why she is ridiculously violent in Part II.

Got it. That still doesn't prove Joel is not her hero, but ok.

 

[KiryuRealty]

Coldblooded doesn't mean sadistic, it means that he doesn't think twice before ending a mofo. And he doesn't. It also doesn't mean "a bad person" so you don't need to get defensive.

He’s ruthless, as defined by Sun Tzu in The Art of War.

“True ruthlessness means counting oneself among the casualties and proceeding into battle regardless.”

 

[Box]

Even if they did find a cure, it's too late the world is in chaos and most enemies u fight are other humans.

The world is under total anarchy

 

[ksdixon]

"Jesus Joel!"

She acts like that over the course of the game and learns to become violent just like Joel. Precisely the reason why she is ridiculously violent in Part II.

mate... she also killled a canibbal/rapist who wanted her as his next meal, in both ways.

you also forget shes been raised as a "militia"/geurilla warfare firefly, and little does joel know but she's seen riley turn and shot a gun.

your joel hate boner is showing, he's not responsible for Ellie's turning violent. or becoming an unlikeable steriotypical lesbian bint in the sequel.

 

[anonpuffs]

mate... she also killled a canibbal/rapist who wanted her as his next meal, in both ways.

you also forget shes been raised as a "militia"/geurilla warfare firefly, and little does joel know but she's seen riley turn and shot a gun.

your joel hate boner is showing, he's not responsible for Ellie's turning violent. or becoming an unlikeable steriotypical lesbian bint in the sequel.

Isn't it clear that ellie already has psycho tendencies pre-joel. I mean she has a lot of trauma. Ofc Joel doesn't help but this ain't a fairy tale

 

[Yobo]

The Fireflies were garbage. Joel is the hero and everybody loved him until they tried to retcon him into a bad person because "he lied". They totally failed, even in the TV show people like Pedro and see him as the hero.

They never retconned or made him into the bad guy

 

[Nhomnhom]

Isn't it clear that ellie already has psycho tendencies pre-joel. I mean she has a lot of trauma. Ofc Joel doesn't help but this ain't a fairy tale

She literally starts to imitate Joel in the second game (like when she attempts to use his torture style and fails miserably).

I find it hilarious how the other guy thinks I hate Joel because I don't think he is a hero, what a weird mindset. Like this is sort of contest instead of just a story.

 

[Yobo]

Joel is probably the only guy in TLOU2 who is given a narrative where he is genuinely the good guy through the whole story and flashbacks and is fully redeemed. Where this idea that they made him into a bad guy comes from must just be poor media literacy

The whole story is about perspectives. The fireflies are bad guys to Joel, Joel is a bad guy to Abby and co, Abby is the bad guy to Ellie, Ellie is the bad guy to the people being hunted in Seattle, the Seraphims are the bad guys to the WLF and vice versa. All of it derives from acts of malice resulting in the desire for revenge and a continued cycle because people only understand their own perspective

Anybody who walked away from that story and just thought they made Joel the bad guy has comprehension issues

 

[KiryuRealty]

Isn't it clear that ellie already has psycho tendencies pre-joel. I mean she has a lot of trauma. Ofc Joel doesn't help but this ain't a fairy tale

You’re dead-on. Ellie is clearly as damaged as Joel, if not more so, just due to never knowing any world but the post-outbreak one she was born into. Joel had a life like any of ours, with some degree of safety and morality in the world that has all been destroyed by the cordyceps epidemic.