It looks like ND has accepted the grayzone in the end of The Last of Us

[Nhomnhom]

Yes he is, so is her.

Joel kills people for money, tortures people, kills defenseless people. What a hero.

I don't even understand Joel apologists, you just come off as clueless people. I couldn't have explained it more clearly, it's not even subtle.

Joel is as much of a hero in Part I as Ellie is in Part II.

 

[PropellerEar]

Joel kills people for money, tortures people, kills defenseless people. What a hero.

One can still be the hero
Guess what even Nathan Drake is a hero.

 

[Nhomnhom]

One can still be the hero
Guess what even Nathan Drake is a hero.

Nathan Drake is not a hero, that is the biggest flaw with early Uncharted that Uncharted 4 at least acknowledges to it's credit.

 

[PropellerEar]

Nathan Drake is not a hero, that is the biggest problem with Uncharted that Uncharted 4 at least acknowledges.

a hero.

 

[Nhomnhom]

a hero.

a lunatic.

 

[Kokoloko]

Yes he is, and so is she.

What are you even saying? I have no problem with her been seen as heroic since all she does is in self defense, Joel is the one who isn't a hero by any means.

Id say they are all heroes. But at the same time can been seen as dicks for there decisions. We’re all kind of different and would act differently in that situation.
Why I think its a sign of a great game and characters. People debating whats right and wrong

 

[Nhomnhom]

Id say they are all heroes. But at the same time can been seen as dicks for there decisions. We’re all kind of different and would act differently in that situation.
Why I think its a sign of a great game and characters. People debating whats right and wrong

We are also not heroes (most likely, maybe you are).

 

[PropellerEar]

a lunatic.

Doesn't exclude him from being a hero.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Doesn't exclude him from being a hero.

Sam is also a hero then, so is Nadine, so is Abby and so is everyone who isn't a mustache twirling villain.

Nathan Drake invades private property to steal things then murders dozens of security guards.

 

[Kokoloko]

We are also not heroes (most likely, maybe you are).

You better believe it baby

 

[Kokoloko]

Sam is also a hero then, so is Nadine, so is Abby and so is everyone who isn't a mustache twirling villain.

Nathan Drake invades private property to steal things than murders dozens of security guards.

Maybe what sets him apart from the villains is he does some good Or tries to. While being a Lunatic lol

 

[Nhomnhom]

You better believe it baby

That's is exactly why Part II ends up being so controversial, gamers are too used to simple narrative of power fantasy and being the hero.

Maybe what sets him apart from the villains is he does some good Or tries to. While being a Lunatic lol

Nathan Drake most of the time doesn't even tries to, he is mostly motivated by very mundane things like money, adventure and eventually he finds himself in the situation where he is almost forced to do some heroic because the people he is going against are comically evil or irresponsible.

It's not a problem to recognize inconsistency in stories, it's actually a merit of the Uncharted games that this stands out (Nathan Drake is portrayed too humanly and it doesn't fit his video game like actions).

Joel is precisely ND's attempt to fix that inconsistency by incorporating that aspect in the narrative.

I love Uncharted and TLoU, some of the best games out there pushing the video game media as a storytelling device.

 

[flaccidsnake]

Imo the "gray area" is not whether Joel was right. The interesting gray area is whether Ellie believes him.

 

[Nhomnhom]

Imo the "gray area" is not whether Joel was right. The interesting gray area is whether Ellie believes him.

She definitely doesn't.

 

[Yurinka]

I think Joel did the right thing, because pretty likely a few doctors in that bad conditions weren't going able to find a cure.

And even if they would have found it, wouldn't be able produce it in enough quantity and having the logistics needed to save the world.

Also, they are in a wild, savage world where people kill each other for survival, to get food, ammo or fuel or simply to keep their territory safe.

On top of that Joel suffered a lot of shit, probably had some trauma with her daughter and so on, pretty likely to lose Ellie would have caused him to go get worse mentally.

So no, this is not a situation of "kill a few guys and save a girl vs let the girl die and save the world" dilema. Not at all. It's "kill a few guys and save the girl that keeps you sane in a world where every day people keep each other frequently vs let the girl die for nothing".

I think both Joel and Ellie qualify as heroes. Some definitions:
"A hero is a real person or a main fictional character who, in the face of danger, combats adversity through feats of ingenuity, courage, or strength."

"a person who is admired for having done something very brave or having achieved something great"

"a: a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b: an illustrious warrior
c: a person admired for achievements and noble qualities
d: one who shows great courage"

 

[Nhomnhom]

I think Joel did the right thing, because pretty likely a few doctors in that bad conditions weren't going able to find a cure.

The game does try to say that the cure was almost guaranteed but fails to do that effectively. But when you see Neil Drukman talk it become pretty clear that that was the intention.

It's not only Neil Drukman btw, also the actors involved, pretty much everyone involved with the game will refute the claim that Joel is a hero. You have interviews of Troy Baker saying Joel is not a hero before the game was even released.

So no, this is not a situation of "kill a few guys and save a girl vs let the girl die and save the world" dilema.

It's exactly what it is trying to be.

 

[anonpuffs]

I think some people get it twisted in that Joel is a heroic figure i.e. he displays many of the classic qualities of a hero(displaying great personal strength, individual fighting against overwhelming odds, stoic father figure, etc). But he's not a hero, he's merely the protagonist. His actions in the game are not those of a hero. The most you could say is that in a dnd alignment chart he would be chaotic neutral or true neutral at best. He's not a villain because even though his deeds could be seen as very evil or abominable, he does them out of self-interest or to protect his own. But he isn't a good person at all, he does not sacrifice for the sake of others, he sacrifices others for the sake of himself.

 

[Sircaw]

Should have sawed ELLIE up and saved the world.

The sooner the world recovers the sooner we would get the next generation of PlayStation.

 

[Gods&Monsters]

The Fireflies in TLoU are not very convincing and how sure they are about the vaccine is contrived making it pretty easy to side with Joel.

It was no supposed to be any clear right thing to do. TLoU Part 2 tries to fix this by making the Fireflies look more competent but then people got mad because it's a retcon and they can't get over that Joel was never supposed to be seen as a hero.

The Fireflies were garbage. Joel is the hero and everybody loved him until they tried to retcon him into a bad person because "he lied". They totally failed, even in the TV show people like Pedro and see him as the hero.

 

[Satoru]

Joel is not the hero of the whole story. He's the hero from Ellie's point of view. He murders a doctor in cold blood and ruins the chance for a vaccine because he lost his daughter and didn't want to lose Ellie. That's not a hero.

The same way the fireflies are not heroes, they are willing to sacrifice a child without telling her, they are unwilling to let Joel say goodbye which triggers his response.

That's the whole point of the second games moral: you're the hero in your own story, you're the hero depending on the point of view, but neither of those make you the hero.