Moore's Law is Dead teasing a potential PS Vita successor

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
The entire point is to not develop any games just for the new portable. Just let it play PC ports and PS4 games.

Yeah, that's not the right thinking.

It would be a handheld built around the PS5. Allowing you to play any PS4 games and most PS5 games after patching, but these are games you'd need to buy specifically for the handheld or at least upgrade to dual entitlement.
 

Nhomnhom

Banned
25 Mar 2023
8,414
11,551
Yeah, that's not the right thinking.

It would be a handheld built around the PS5. Allowing you to play any PS4 games and most PS5 games after patching, but these are games you'd need to buy specifically for the handheld or at least upgrade to dual entitlement.
Good luck building a PS5 handheld and having to port every game. Sony has shown that they can't even bother patching most of their own games when releasing something like the PS4 Pro or PS5.

If new PS5 games had to worry about a gimped PS5 portable you would end up in a far worse situation than the Series S one for MS. It makes no sense.

They would be crucified if they charged twice for the same games, they were the ones that introduced crossbuy and it's the main reason along with PS+ why a PlayStation portable would be compelling (more ways to play your library of games).

Proton shows that a compatibility layer on Linux is able to work with close to no impact on performance, so that would make it possible for PS4 games to run on more modern hardware without requiring it being extremely powerful.

PSP released 20 years ago, Sony has no shot to replicate it's success by following the same approach, that already failed with the Vita.
 
Last edited:

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
Good luck building a PS5 handheld and having to port every game. Sony has shown that they can't even bother patching most of their own games when releasing something like the PS4 Pro or PS5.

If new PS5 games had to worry about a gimped PS5 portable you would end up in a far worse situation than the Series S one for MS. It makes no sense.

They would be crucified if they charged twice for the same games, they were the ones that introduced crossbuy and it's the main reason along with PS+ why a PlayStation portable would be compelling (more ways to play your library of games).

Proton shows that a compatibility layer on Linux is able to work with close to no impact on performance, so that would make it possible for PS4 games to run on more modern hardware without requiring it being extremely powerful.

Why would you have to port every game. Do PS5 Pro games need to be ported?

How would it be a worse situation than the Series S. The Series S is gimped, but has the same form factor as the XSX. The benefit you're getting here is that you're at least getting it in a portable form factor where it doesn't need to be as powerful.

They would be crucified for charging twice for the same game? By whom? The only reason the steam deck is crossbuy is because it's literally just a PC.

Going further if this did just run linux, it's only a matter of time until it's hacked to run SteamOS and now you're not getting any software revenue at all, not to mention again, with crossbuy you're going to have to run the device at an extremely high premium.

Most people would rather buy the handheld and buy the games they want for it and have the option to pay for cross entitlement than to HAVE to drop 800 dollars on this, which is what Sony would have to sell it for. And you're still going to have to port PS4 games over... it doesn't make any sense.
 

Nhomnhom

Banned
25 Mar 2023
8,414
11,551
Why would you have to port every game. Do PS5 Pro games need to be ported?

How would it be a worse situation than the Series S. The Series S is gimped, but has the same form factor as the XSX. The benefit you're getting here is that you're at least getting it in a portable form factor where it doesn't need to be as powerful.

They would be crucified for charging twice for the same game? By whom? The only reason the steam deck is crossbuy is because it's literally just a PC.

Going further if this did just run linux, it's only a matter of time until it's hacked to run SteamOS and now you're not getting any software revenue at all, not to mention again, with crossbuy you're going to have to run the device at an extremely high premium.

Most people would rather buy the handheld and buy the games they want for it and have the option to pay for cross entitlement than to HAVE to drop 800 dollars on this, which is what Sony would have to sell it for. And you're still going to have to port PS4 games over... it doesn't make any sense.
Don't you understand the difference between running a game on a more powerful platform and running it on a much weaker platform? How strong to you think a portable console could be right now at a decent price? Even making it strong enough to safely handle PS4 emulation would be a challenge.

Did you even own a PSP or Vita btw? You seem to have very unrealistic expectations.

If there is an emulation layer for PS4 they wouldn't need to port every games, that is the entire point.

What doesn't make any sense if for you to expect a cheap device that can run PS5 games natively and that will also charge people twice for the same games.
 
  • they're_right_you_know
Reactions: xollowsob

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
Don't you understand the difference between running a game on a more powerful platform and running it on a much weaker platform? How strong to you think a portable console could be right now at a decent price? Even making it strong enough to safely handle PS4 emulation would be a challenge.

Did you even own a PSP or Vita btw? You seem to have very unrealistic expectations.

If there is an emulation layer for PS4 they wouldn't need to port every games, that is the entire point.

What doesn't make any sense if for you to expect a cheap device that can run PS5 games natively and that will also charge people twice for the same games.

If you look at the onexfly, you'd realize we're not far from the power needed to run a toned down PS5 in portable form. AMD will be working on a custom chipset for the PlayStation handheld that utilizes the same architecture and logic of the PS5 allowing for PS4 games to work without updating and only requiring PS5 games to be patched similar to PS5 Pro games.

Emulating PS4 vs utilizing the same architecture are not the same and actually why your argument doesn't hold water.

The PS5 doesn't emulate the PS4, you realize that right?

I didn't say cheap, but 450-500 is a far cry from 800+.

It's important to recognize that even the physical games will have a different form factor. So why would anyone assume that when physical games don't work that your digital library would? It's not the same situation as the Steamdeck and Sony isn't building a steam deck.
 

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,293
4,184
The entire point is to not develop any games just for the new portable. Just let it play PC ports and PS4 games.

The most idiotic thing Sony could do is try to release a console like the PSP, where they would have to make games specifically for it. That is not going to work at all, even Nintendo consolidated their development efforts into a single platform.
Yeah it would have to be crossbuy, shared library.
Steamdeck currently plays TLOU1 Remake, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank (although Ive heard it doesnt play R&C well) All PS5 not cross gen games.
Im sure next year’s specs could play these games all better.

Sony can barely handle making enough games for PS5 with its studios, ontop of PSVR2. If anyone think there gonna make a dedicated PSP with its own games that would be silly and super retarded if Sony tried doing that. I think with Steamdeck, its opened the doors for handhelds even more to play current gen games.

All the PS5 games except Spiderman 2 would be available on handheld and most the 3rd party games already are available on Steamdeck and weaker PC’s.
Thats a bit library already of games to start the system with
 

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
Yeah it would have to be crossbuy, shared library.
Steamdeck currently plays TLOU1 Remake, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank (although Ive heard it doesnt play R&C well) All PS5 not cross gen games.
Im sure next year’s specs could play these games all better.

Sony can barely handle making enough games for PS5 with its studios, ontop of PSVR2. If anyone think there gonna make a dedicated PSP with its own games that would be silly and super retarded if Sony tried doing that. I think with Steamdeck, its opened the doors for handhelds even more to play current gen games.

All the PS5 games except Spiderman 2 would be available on handheld and most the 3rd party games already are available on Steamdeck and weaker PC’s.
Thats a bit library already of games to start the system with

Shared library is an obvious necessity, but crossbuy at least for free doesn't make financial sense.

The Steam deck doesn't sell well because it's only available online and gets close to no marketing. Valve does this to keep their margins high.

A Portable playstation with the same architecture of the PS5 with a slower clock speed would generally only need reduced resolution in order to patch the games. That's not a tall task, especially with most games playing probably at 30fps.

The steamdeck hasn't really changed the calculus on portable gaming. The switch on the other hand has.

The Series S wouldn't have a problem if it didn't lack memory and actually played Series X games purely at lower resolutions.
 
  • brain
Reactions: Kokoloko

Nhomnhom

Banned
25 Mar 2023
8,414
11,551
Why would a compatibility layer work for Xbox One games on Xbox Series and for Windows games on Linux but not for PS4 games on a new system? A PS5 like solution for PS4 games on this new portable would likely be much harder to implement as portables of reasonable price and efficiency tend to have a lot less CUs.

It's also something Sony is going to have to develop anyway for their future cloud infrastructure and compatibility with their own new hardware so they might as well just get it done sooner rather than later.
 

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
Why would a compatibility layer work for Xbox One games on Xbox Series and for Windows games on Linux but not for PS4 games on a new system? A PS5 like solution for PS4 games on this new portable would likely be much harder to implement as portables of reasonable price and efficiency tend to have a lot less CUs.

It's also something Sony is going to have to develop anyway for their future cloud infrastructure and compatibility with their own new hardware so they might as well just get it done sooner rather than later.

I guess the problem here is that you think that is an easy thing to develop.

Proton is a fork of Wine which has been in development since the 90s...
 

Nhomnhom

Banned
25 Mar 2023
8,414
11,551
I guess the problem here is that you think that is an easy thing to develop.

Proton is a fork of Wine which has been in development since the 90s...
So you think PS6 is going to have to be designed with PS4 BC in mind? Insanity.

The moment Sony has a software solution for running PS4 games on PC hardware they are pretty much free to do whatever they want when it comes to portables, cloud infrastructure, etc.

The cost of having to limit their hardware choices to things that are able to natively run PS4 games is much bigger than the cost of developing a proper solution. It should be one of their biggest priorities.
 
  • they're_right_you_know
Reactions: xollowsob

flaccidsnake

Veteran
2 May 2023
2,997
2,525
Reminder that Moore's Law is Dead is a wildly unreliable website.



Here's him reporting internal sources that Intel was going to mothball the Arc discrete GPU initiative just a couple months before the Alchemist cards shipped. Spoiler alert, it did launch and all signs point to the followup Battlemage launching this year.
 

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
So you think PS6 is going to have to be designed with PS4 BC in mind? Insanity.

The moment Sony has a software solution for running PS4 games on PC hardware they are pretty much free to do whatever they want when it comes to portables, cloud infrastructure, etc.

The cost of having to limit their hardware choices to things that are able to natively run PS4 games is much bigger than the cost of developing a proper solution. It should be one of their biggest priorities.

Sony is going to maintain this architecture for the foreseeable future. It's a reason why Sony will stick with AMD over going with nvidia.

Do you notice how the PS5 doesn't play PS3 games? Developing a compatibility layer isn't as simple as you think it is. It takes years if not decades.

There isn't much cost in dealing with AMD since they have a strong partnership on pricing, maintaining the architecture doesn't really cost them anything, it goes down to game logic. It's the same reason you can play windows games from the 90s and early 2000s.
 

Nhomnhom

Banned
25 Mar 2023
8,414
11,551
Sony is going to maintain this architecture for the foreseeable future. It's a reason why Sony will stick with AMD over going with nvidia.

Do you notice how the PS5 doesn't play PS3 games? Developing a compatibility layer isn't as simple as you think it is. It takes years if not decades.

There isn't much cost in dealing with AMD since they have a strong partnership on pricing, maintaining the architecture doesn't really cost them anything, it goes down to game logic. It's the same reason you can play windows games from the 90s and early 2000s.
I'm not talking about Sony moving on from x86 or AMD, their portable would also be x86 anyway. What you claim to be impossible is the solution multiple other companies arrived at for similar things including Microsoft, Valve and Apple.
 

mibu no ookami

Veteran
21 Feb 2024
1,235
1,059
I'm not talking about Sony moving on from x86 or AMD, their portable would also be x86 anyway. What you claim to be impossible is the solution multiple other companies arrived at for similar things including Microsoft, Valve and Apple.

Where did I say it was impossible? What I said is that it takes a lot more time and effort than you're suggesting here.
 

Neversummer

Veteran
27 Jun 2023
1,189
1,148
Hopefully Sony doesn’t make the PS6 a traditional console like PS5 & instead take the Switch approach of combining handheld/dock ability maybe Cerny has some magic AI scaling for a weaker hardware to output similar visual & frames as the PS5 w lower spec. Having 2 piece of hardware at $400 (handheld) & $500 (traditional console) will be a hard sell & like the series S/X could eat away each other better to combine both like Switch

Assuming they combine both like Switch they’ll probably take the model of the Portal & make it Native. Portal was probably a test to see if people like the idea of a PS handheld & it got good reception from fans I like the Portal for smaller games platformers, turn base & slower game thoe I wish it was native would easily pay $500 if it was native & give the option to dock it to a TV or monitor also allow controllers to detact like the Switch & be connected together like a regular duel sense.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko

Veteran
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
5,293
4,184
Shared library is an obvious necessity, but crossbuy at least for free doesn't make financial sense.

I think if they ever do a portable, it would have to be crossbuy like Steam/Steamdeck and like PSP/Vita/PS3/PS4 etc They were also crossbuy. So if you own God of War Ragnarok on your PS5/PS4 via PSN, you would have access to download it on your PSP3.

I believe some of the games you own on PSP/Vita are still crossbuy with PS4/PS5 via the classic games, or they wanted to do it. I havent checked because sometimes I got the option to buy the classic PS1 games (PS+Premium) like Ridge Racer. But I remember reading something about it
 

ToTTenTranz

Veteran
Icon Extra
4 Aug 2023
1,295
1,307
A Portable playstation with the same architecture of the PS5 with a slower clock speed would generally only need reduced resolution in order to patch the games. That's not a tall task, especially with most games playing probably at 30fps.

The steamdeck hasn't really changed the calculus on portable gaming. The switch on the other hand has.

The Series S wouldn't have a problem if it didn't lack memory and actually played Series X games purely at lower resolutions.
This hasn't been true for a number of years.

We're now in a world where the GPU is used to accelerate a lot of things in a game that don't scale down linearly with resolution, like the traditional pixel and vertex shaders used to do. GPUs on AAA games nowadays will do procedural generation, physics and fluid simulation, BVH traversal in ray tracing, motion vectors on temporal upscaling, etc. Not to mention the compute-based geometry processing of Nanite in UE5 that is bound to be in AAA games from all the big publishers.
These are tasks that when put together they impose TFLOPs out of the GPU's compute budget and won't go away with a lower resolution.


Sure, the Series S' main issue is indeed the small 10GB pool (or rather a medium-slow 8GB pool paired with a super-slow 2GB pool).
However, Microsoft sold the idea of the Series S as a console that was going to run the exact same games and settings as the Series X but at a third the resolution, from a 4K (upscaled from 1440p) presentation to a 1440p (upscaled from 1080p) presentation.

In reality, that didn't happen. Proof of this are all the Xbox games that have a raytracing mode in the Series X but none of it in the Series S. Or games that have a 60 FPS Performance mode only on the Series X.
No matter how fewer pixels the smaller GPU has to rasterize, all the compute stuff must happen as well because of feature and gameplay parity.



So no, you can't just tell the game engine to target half the resolution and the game will run flawlessly on a GPU with half the compute power as long as it has the same amount of memory available. At the very least you'll need developer intervention to apply more aggressive downgrades to cater to the GPU compute deficit, and/or more than half the compute power on the smaller GPU to compensate for all the non-rasterization compute tasks that take the same amount of compute regardless of resolution.






Imagine if PS6 ends being Vita hybrid 🔥
I can't see a portable PS6 releasing in 2028 being more powerful than a PS5, let alone a PS5 Pro.
Unless it has a dock with a discrete GPU using a very fast and wide bus, but that wouldn't come cheap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kaluas

ethomaz

Rebolation!
Icon Extra
21 Jun 2022
10,859
8,886
Brasil 🇧🇷
PSN ID
ethomaz
I can't see a portable PS6 releasing in 2028 being more powerful than a PS5, let alone a PS5 Pro.
Unless it has a dock with a discrete GPU using a very fast and wide bus, but that wouldn't come cheap.
I can't see a PS6 being stronger than PS5 Pro being smaller than your TV hack in your living room 🤷‍♂️
If Sony continue with AMD there is no option for anything at all.. neither console stronger than PS5 Pro neither a portable.

What I expect from PS5 Pro?

Lower jump than PS4 to PS4 Pro and the biggest console ever created.