Sony Pictures reportedly in talks to buy Paramount. |UP|Sony Makes $26 Billion All-Cash Offer for Paramount.

mibu no ookami

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And those had a value proposition of the MCU, which Morbius and Madame Web didn't. You cannot compare the two of them.

You're missing the point. Sony doesn't have a lot of IP. They promised Netflix movies and here are the low rung movies they are delivering. Like I said, I don't think they're intentionally releasing flops, but I do think they could have released movies they knew would have done better and are purposefully waiting for a new deal before inking those movies.

Again, why with the internet clamoring for Spider-Gwen with Emma Stone do you think they're randomly making Madame Web with Dakota Johnson. You don't think Sony sees that?

Of course I don't, but you do.

What you're saying is nonsense. The moves being on Netflix 6 months post-release affects their bottom line very little, if at all. They also released Across the Spider-Verse, which they knew would be a banger.

Sony is holding off on movies because they know they can get a lot more money from Spider-Man using their Marvel partnership. Marvel on the other hand doesn't give two flying fucks about Morbius and Madame Web.

Again, they already promised Spider-verse. These movies aren't nearly as big as the Spider-Man live action movies. Which they're dead silent on.

Homecoming came out in 2017. Far From Home in 2019. No Way Home came out in 2021. Each of these movies is 2 years apart. We're now in 2024 and a new Spider-Man movie hasn't even been announced... That's 3 years. No Way Home was announced 4 years before it released.

I didn't say they didn't.

If you say a movie bombed only because of its box office while ignoring other revenue streams, it's a bit disingenuous.

I'm aware. The Netflix deal was also signed 3 years after the release of Into the Spider-Verse.

And if you're right, you're right, I'll sleep at night just the same.

LOL, thank you for the concession.
 

Darth Vader

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You're missing the point. Sony doesn't have a lot of IP. They promised Netflix movies and here are the low rung movies they are delivering. Like I said, I don't think they're intentionally releasing flops, but I do think they could have released movies they knew would have done better and are purposefully waiting for a new deal before inking those movies.
I'm sorry, what?

Again, why with the internet clamoring for Spider-Gwen with Emma Stone do you think they're randomly making Madame Web with Dakota Johnson. You don't think Sony sees that?
Perhaps because Emma Stone was not available or not interested? Considering the direction of Morbius and Madame Web, and that she just won an Oscar... It's just possible she's not interested. I know I wouldn't, but that's me.

Again, they already promised Spider-verse. These movies aren't nearly as big as the Spider-Man live action movies. Which they're dead silent on.

Homecoming came out in 2017. Far From Home in 2019. No Way Home came out in 2021. Each of these movies is 2 years apart. We're now in 2024 and a new Spider-Man movie hasn't even been announced... That's 3 years. No Way Home was announced 4 years before it released.
Your assumption is entirely wrong. Sony has negotiated with Marvel on a new Spider-Man - as reported by many trades - and have agreed with Marvel to produce SM4 with Tom Holland. It's also been reported that Sony wanted another Multiverse adventure and Marvel managed to convince them on having a "street" level SM movie.

Not sure if you knew, but Tom Holland had a mini-hiatus from SM, and Sony and Marvel had to agree on terms for the new movie.

If you say a movie bombed only because of its box office while ignoring other revenue streams, it's a bit disingenuous.
That's literally what a box office bomb means, I'm not making these terms up. You, on the other way, are trying to make it seem like Morbius and Madame Web were anything but bombs.

LOL, thank you for the concession.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I mean it. I don't give two fucks about being right or wrong, shit either happens or not.
 

mibu no ookami

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I'm sorry, what?

In Sony's entire box office history they have the following
Spider-Man (which they have limited overall rights to)
Bond (which they no longer have distribution rights to)
Jumanji
Venom (see Spider-Man)
Da Vinci Code (no longer has any value)
Men in Black (no longer has much value)

That's about it for their IP. They have Smurfs and Hotel Transylvania, but those also have limited range. Same with the Karate Kid.

Compare this to Disney, Warner, or even Universal... they have considerably more IP. Not sure what you were confused about here.


Perhaps because Emma Stone was not available or not interested? Considering the direction of Morbius and Madame Web, and that she just won an Oscar... It's just possible she's not interested. I know I wouldn't, but that's me.

Of course we can't know all the details that aren't publicly available, but that's definitely you. Most people don't turn down the chance at leading big box office movies that can gross hundreds of millions of dollars, if not a billion plus.

But for context, she did sign up for Amazing Spider-Man and she did sign up for Cruella. This would easily be her best opportunity to become a bigger box office star. I'd be stunned if she would turn this down.

Your assumption is entirely wrong. Sony has negotiated with Marvel on a new Spider-Man - as reported by many trades - and have agreed with Marvel to produce SM4 with Tom Holland. It's also been reported that Sony wanted another Multiverse adventure and Marvel managed to convince them on having a "street" level SM movie.

Not sure if you knew, but Tom Holland had a mini-hiatus from SM, and Sony and Marvel had to agree on terms for the new movie.

Did you know the difference between negotiating a movie and announcing it? They haven't announced it yet, so the SOONEST it could come out would be next summer, which is my point. When this movie comes out it will not be a part of the Sony Netflix deal. You're also ignoring the demand for Raimi Spider-Man 4 and Amazing Spider-Man 3. Either would do above 500 million at this point and make way more sense than madame web, morbius, or kraven.

Tom Holland never took a hiatus from spider-man he took a hiatus from acting for a year. That doesn't explain this sizeable gap in announcing a movie. Again... No Way Home came out in 2021. Normally a 4th movie would be out two years later. So let's add a year to that, you would still expect a movie within 2024, and we don't even know if there will be a movie in 2025, it certainly isn't likely. So if something comes out in 2026, that would be a 5 year gap in between movies. That's a lot of time to not make potentially a billion dollars at the box office.

That's literally what a box office bomb means, I'm not making these terms up. You, on the other way, are trying to make it seem like Morbius and Madame Web were anything but bombs.

There is a difference between a box office bomb and a financial loser.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I mean it. I don't give two fucks about being right or wrong, shit either happens or not.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter about being right or wrong. It's all speculative, but on this site especially, people seem to make really shitty arguments that aren't based in any logic. That's worse than being wrong, at least in my book.

No one is right about everything when it comes to speculation, but the value of their speculation to me is based in the thought process and the logic.

I generally have you on ignore, so I already knew what I was getting into responding to you, but I generally continue to give every the benefit of the doubt in discussions, especially if they're worth talking about.
 

Darth Vader

I find your lack of faith disturbing
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In Sony's entire box office history they have the following
Spider-Man (which they have limited overall rights to)
Bond (which they no longer have distribution rights to)
Jumanji
Venom (see Spider-Man)
Da Vinci Code (no longer has any value)
Men in Black (no longer has much value)

That's about it for their IP. They have Smurfs and Hotel Transylvania, but those also have limited range. Same with the Karate Kid.

Compare this to Disney, Warner, or even Universal... they have considerably more IP. Not sure what you were confused about here.

Of course we can't know all the details that aren't publicly available, but that's definitely you. Most people don't turn down the chance at leading big box office movies that can gross hundreds of millions of dollars, if not a billion plus.

But for context, she did sign up for Amazing Spider-Man and she did sign up for Cruella. This would easily be her best opportunity to become a bigger box office star. I'd be stunned if she would turn this down.
She signed up for Amazing Spider-Man and Cruella in a much different context in her career.

Did you know the difference between negotiating a movie and announcing it? They haven't announced it yet, so the SOONEST it could come out would be next summer, which is my point. When this movie comes out it will not be a part of the Sony Netflix deal. You're also ignoring the demand for Raimi Spider-Man 4 and Amazing Spider-Man 3. Either would do above 500 million at this point and make way more sense than madame web, morbius, or kraven.
I'm not ignoring anything, I'm giving you context. The Sony Netflix deal ends in 2026, next summer is 2025. And I'm aware there's demand for Raimi and AMS, but that doesn't mean they will be made anytime soon or that they won't be made because of the Netflix deal - that's all you, and that opinion is as baseless as mine.


Tom Holland never took a hiatus from spider-man he took a hiatus from acting for a year. That doesn't explain this sizeable gap in announcing a movie. Again... No Way Home came out in 2021. Normally a 4th movie would be out two years later. So let's add a year to that, you would still expect a movie within 2024, and we don't even know if there will be a movie in 2025, it certainly isn't likely. So if something comes out in 2026, that would be a 5 year gap in between movies. That's a lot of time to not make potentially a billion dollars at the box office.
So he took a hiatus from Spider-Man, thanks for confirming!

As for the gap between releases, many things can and are impacting it:
  • Tom Holland's hiatus
  • Sony wanting a bigger scope project vs Marvel wanting a street level Spider-Man
  • The ongoing turmoil with MCU productions, with many being scrapped, moved, or even re-shot (Daredevil, for example)
You can believe this is all about Netflix, and you may be right, but Occam's Razor is not your friend here. From what we know from the trades (which are usually correct), the above are some of the reasons for the delays.

There is a difference between a box office bomb and a financial loser.
Please point out where we were not both talking about box office revenue, and please stop moving the goalpost since we were clearly talking about that.

Morbius had a budget of 75-83 million dollars and it made 167 million at the box office. It came close to breaking even with the 2.5x budget formula.
Madame Web didn't have a huge marketing budget and it made back its initial budget.

Here's what I said

That's called a flop. You're making it sound as if it was almost a success. Also 75*2.5=187, which means it lost around 20M best case.
No it didn't. Madame Web's budget without Marketing was between 80 and 100M dollars. Even if they only spent 0.5x production budget in Marketing it would still have made a loss. Unless you don't consider marketing as part of a movie's budget.

Both movies were box office failures that didn't make their money back. If t-shirt sales and the netflix deal comped for that that's great, but that was never the crux of the discussion.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter about being right or wrong. It's all speculative, but on this site especially, people seem to make really shitty arguments that aren't based in any logic. That's worse than being wrong, at least in my book.
Funny that you say, it's a very nice way of saying "anything I don't agree with isn't based in any logic". Yet I have pointed several gaps in your logic, which you choose to dismiss (with comments such as that one).

No one is right about everything when it comes to speculation, but the value of their speculation to me is based in the thought process and the logic.
Exactly, and you act as if your logic is better than other people's.

I generally have you on ignore, so I already knew what I was getting into responding to you, but I generally continue to give every the benefit of the doubt in discussions, especially if they're worth talking about.
And there you go, thank you for confirming.
 

Kokoloko

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Man why not buy Warner where it can help your gaming division and your movie division.
What IPs do Warner and Paramound have?
Doesnt warner own the rights of DC, Harry Potter, Lego movies etc?
 
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Nhomnhom

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I think WB has a huge debt.
WB is miles better than Paramount its not even comparable.

With WB at least Sony would become the most relevant entertainment company in the world by far and maybe would start getting some recognition. Paramount is a waste of money and wouldn't change anything.

HBO, DC Comics, Harry Potter, TLotR movie rights, Dune, Hanna-Barbera, and so much more.
 
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Batzy

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WB is miles better than Paramount its not even comparable.

With WB at least Sony would become the most relevant entertainment company in the world by far and maybe would start getting some recognition. Paramount is a waste of money and wouldn't change anything.

HBO, DC Comics, Harry Potter, TLotR movie rights, Dune, Hanna-Barbera, and so much more.
Buying all of wb is a waste of money. Most of the things you named they don't own. The only worthwhile thing for sony is new line cinema and warner music. And I agree, paramount is a waste of money as well.
 

Nhomnhom

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Buying all of wb is a waste of money. Most of the things you named they don't own. The only worthwhile thing for sony is new line cinema and warner music. And I agree, paramount is a waste of money as well.
Incorrect in every possible way, WBD doesnt even own Warner Music and if they did Sony wouldn't be allowed to keep it.
 
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Batzy

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Incorrect in every possible way, WBD doesnt even own Warner Music and if they did Sony wouldn't be allowed to keep it.
My point still stands, even if they don't own it. They are in the process to buy Queen for 1 billion. Maybe they can't buy all of Warner Music but probably artist library.
 

mibu no ookami

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no, they got outbid by the original group. also sony shareholders weren't too happy with it so idk if they'll make another offer. imo they shouldn't get into a bidding war for a spiraling company like paramount, that's a move microsoft would do. sony should buy a company that's up and coming, not an aging dinosaur on its last legs.

Why outright make things up?
 

anonpuffs

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Why outright make things up?
What's made up? It was reported after Sony's bid that the original group resubmitted a different offer that was then being preferentially considered by paramount's board.


Skydance submitted a sweetened offer for its proposed merger with Paramount which is said to offer improved terms for both voting and non-voting Paramount shareholders, and provides more cash, a source told Reuters on Thursday.
National Amusements, the parent company of Paramount, wants Skydance to provide legal protection in the event of a lawsuit, the New York Times reported on Sunday.
It is not decided yet if Paramount will be given a "go-shop" period to see if it can get a superior offer to the Skydance deal or submit the deal to a shareholder vote, the NYT report said.
Meanwhile, a rival bidder, Sony Pictures Entertainment (6758.T), opens new tab, in partnership with Apollo Global Management (APO.N), opens new tab, emerged late in the deal process, submitting a non-binding all-cash offer of $26 billion. It has since backed away from that initial proposal in favor of a more limited approach.
 
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mibu no ookami

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What's made up? It was reported after Sony's bid that the original group resubmitted a different offer that was then being preferentially considered by paramount's board.


They were never outbid, nor have they submitted a new bid. In fact, the original bid was not a bid at all since it was non-binding.
 
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mibu no ookami

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So you're going to play semantics now that you've been proven wrong, cool.

Everything you said was wrong... how is it semantics.

You literally don't understand what is going on and decide to make things up.

Paramount was in talks with skydance exclusively for a 2 part deal; to buy National Amusements and then to merge Paramount and Skydance. This was going to generously reward Redstone for her shares of Paramount which make up nearly 80% of the voting stock, despite being only about 10% of the actual stock.

Before the exclusivity ran out Sony/Apollo throw into the mix a non binding offer for 26 billion, publicly. They almost certainly did this to poison the Skydance deal before they had a chance to make their own bid on Paramount and allow the exclusive period to lapse.

Had the Skydance deal went through, Skydance would have forced a merger that would have diluted Paramount shareholders value in the company. They sweetened the deal a bit, but litigation was still likely. Redstone asked that any legal fees be covered by Skydance and that it be put up to a vote (to prevent litigation). That was a non-starter for Skydance and why the Skydance deal fell apart. Even with the Skydance deal Redstone had negotiated a buy-shop provision where they'd likely have at least 30 days to find a higher bidder.

Going back to Sony, they signed an NDA to look at Paramounts books, but reports were that they were already scaling back what they were going to offer. Their non-binding bid merely bought them time. They have never made an actual offer for Paramount, nor was their non-binding bid of 26 billion ever outbid.

So Sony hasn't made an offer at all, so how exactly are you saying they were outbid?

Their 26 billion dollar non binding offer is certainly not going to be outbid by anyone and even Sony isn't going to pay that (in tandem with Apollo).

Their scaled back offer has yet to actually come and we have no idea what that would look like. It could end up being an offer to buy National Amusements which is valued at about 2.5 to 3 billion dollars or it could be an offer to buy Paramount Pictures (Film and TV studio) which is valued at about 11 billion dollars.

Buying National Amusements would allow Sony to block any purchase by outside parties and to create a somewhat favorable deal for themselves, but at the end of the day all they actually want is Paramount Pictures (Film and TV studio).
 
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