Sony - Quarter 3 Financial Results 2022

KiryuRealty

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Where it’s at.
I've seen people want or expect Gamepass to be on PS consoles. I don't see that ever happening and you've pinpointed exactly why. I think we're now seeing some of the negative impact of the service and although Phil has publicly said the price will increase in the future, I'm not sure that will be enough to offset all the issues that are occurring in terms of shaping buying habits and loss of sales for first and third party games. I said this in a previous discussion with you, but I really wonder when MS will realize that the Gamepass strategy is not working well for them. I'm not saying they should cancel it either. It's a service that is very much appreciated by those that subscribe to it, but some changes in how it functions may eventually be required.
They already know it's not working, and did before the last quarterly results call.

Executive bonuses are almost always set at a slam-dunk level, since that's where most execs make the bulk of their money. GamePass missing the bonus trigger last year showed their projections were shit, and GamePass is in trouble.

Subscriptions as a whole are not working for MS the way they thought they would, so Nadella's nuts are in a vice now, as well as Phil's.
 

laynelane

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Internally, MS probably already have enough data to show that it isn't quite working. Notice they're doing the early access for RedFall same as they did with FH5? If the service revenue were enough to account for revenue projections of the software, why do early access for preorders? Granted, I think it's a good strategy to counter whatever revenue issues Game Pass itself has, but it's worth noting.

Game Pass changes are definitely coming this year. Maybe closer to the end; the ad-supported tier, probably higher tiers. A Family Plan. Maybe even stopping Day 1 for all games into the regular tiers & ad-based tier, but copying Sony's Game Trails concept to make up for that.

This is a little OT, but I wonder if the issue with gaming sub services not being used by the majority has to do with the medium itself. For example, I replay games I enjoy so will always purchase them. If I'm unsure of a game, I'll research it first before buying. In both cases, a sub fee is extraneous for me. It would simply be spending money on nothing according to how I play games. I think I'm not alone in this outlook, but understand others are a better fit for the sub model.

On another note - there's been talk of the "Netflix of gaming", but people were already conditioned to pay for transient access to movies and shows with theaters and cable tv fees. Due to this, Netflix wasn't a big leap. Games are different in that respect. They're also a very different format from movies and shows. I would say shows are a passive form of entertainment and games are an interactive one. Given all this, it seems doubtful that a service like Gamepass will reach the numbers MS wants it to. I wonder if they've dug themselves into a bit of a hole here, but I suppose time will tell on that.
 
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Bryank75

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PC ports have been in the works since before the PS5 was even released. They want more money, and their customers aren't going to leave their ecosystem.

A sony storefront on PC would be worse for them, as the hardcore sony crowd would then come to PC, and eventually that means they'll come to Steam.

I've seen many in the last year just go straight to Steam, the middle step of making a PC launcher is irrelevant and whether PS leadership or people in general want to ignore it or act like it isn't a threat...the fact is that they are already losing hardcore PS fans.

There are tweets of some prominent PS users saying they are making their main platform PC from now on due to lower launch prices for multiplats and obviously more control over specs and how the power is used. They say they will keep a PS for exclusives only.

It's a terrible strategy from PS leadership and the issue is that, it doesn't show the damage it has done until the end of the generation, only then can you see how you have lowered the roof of console sales and pushed longtime users away to Steam.

I don't understand how people cannot see this or if they just refuse to see it because they think they benefit in some way..... but it's frustrating that people can appear to be so blind to it.

PlayStations real competition is Steam and PC..... and they have thousands of streamers on their side pushing people to buy PC's. Sony need to be careful cause their success is 100% tied to hardware sales...whether they like it or not.
 

KiryuRealty

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Where it’s at.
I've seen many in the last year just go straight to Steam, the middle step of making a PC launcher is irrelevant and whether PS leadership or people in general want to ignore it or act like it isn't a threat...the fact is that they are already losing hardcore PS fans.

There are tweets of some prominent PS users saying they are making their main platform PC from now on due to lower launch prices for multiplats and obviously more control over specs and how the power is used. They say they will keep a PS for exclusives only.

It's a terrible strategy from PS leadership and the issue is that, it doesn't show the damage it has done until the end of the generation, only then can you see how you have lowered the roof of console sales and pushed longtime users away to Steam.

I don't understand how people cannot see this or if they just refuse to see it because they think they benefit in some way..... but it's frustrating that people can appear to be so blind to it.

PlayStations real competition is Steam and PC..... and they have thousands of streamers on their side pushing people to buy PC's. Sony need to be careful cause their success is 100% tied to hardware sales...whether they like it or not.
Your doomsaying is even more ridiculous than usual considering the record performance of the PS5.
 
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Bryank75

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Your doomsaying is even more ridiculous than usual considering the record performance of the PS5.

I'm not doomsaying anything.

The last few PC ports pretty much flopped and that is good for console. Maybe the crossover isn't as big as we thought and they will just stop bothering eventually.... you know, when they put their pride aside.

A company can do great and still make mistakes..... they made all their money with console sales and first party and 3rd party software sales on console, as they always have done.

PC is a shithouse. Just forget about it.... what's wrong with me saying that? FUCK PC.
 

Gediminas

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I'm not doomsaying anything.

The last few PC ports pretty much flopped and that is good for console. Maybe the crossover isn't as big as we thought and they will just stop bothering eventually.... you know, when they put their pride aside.

A company can do great and still make mistakes..... they made all their money with console sales and first party and 3rd party software sales on console, as they always have done.

PC is a shithouse. Just forget about it.... what's wrong with me saying that? FUCK PC.
Fuck PC.
 

ethomaz

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I'm not doomsaying anything.

The last few PC ports pretty much flopped and that is good for console. Maybe the crossover isn't as big as we thought and they will just stop bothering eventually.... you know, when they put their pride aside.

A company can do great and still make mistakes..... they made all their money with console sales and first party and 3rd party software sales on console, as they always have done.

PC is a shithouse. Just forget about it.... what's wrong with me saying that? FUCK PC.
I think they will learn with PC and set with very little big titles that really have potential to sell on PC.

Most of PC port Sony did these years are still experiments to have an ideia what works and what don’t imo.
 
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Bryank75

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I fully believe Jim Ryan thought pc ports of their games would sell a megaton but it seems like he got a reality check.

Yup, I seem to remember him say something to the effect that he wanted not just tens of millions but hundreds of millions of gamers to enjoy their games....

That's when I said to myself it sounded like something a MSFT exec would say. (Billions of gamers etc.)

Not that I don't want hudreds of millions to enjoy the games.....but I want them to enjoy them on a PS console, where they were made to be played, with the customers and fans that made the games a success in the first place. All together at each launch.
 

Firefly

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Yup, I seem to remember him say something to the effect that he wanted not just tens of millions but hundreds of millions of gamers to enjoy their games....

That's when I said to myself it sounded like something a MSFT exec would say. (Billions of gamers etc.)

Not that I don't want hudreds of millions to enjoy the games.....but I want them to enjoy them on a PS console, where they were made to be played, with the customers and fans that made the games a success in the first place. All together at each launch.
Yeah he definitely has the square enix mentality which is not good imo.
 

Yurinka

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Yeah, the Game Pass model just isn't holding up under pressure and scrutiny. I think it works well as a backlog service, and maybe for some smaller indie & AA games that could use the boost a service brings to their profile, but that is realistically about the extent of it. And, this is something Sony already knows, they've known for a while, which is why they handle PS+ the way they do.

Microsoft simply didn't have the right games ready, when they should've been ready. Halo should have been an actual success, FH5 should've been more than what seemed like an expansion (at the end of the day). Bleeding Edge should have been salvaged. Everwild should've been ready for 2021 or at most 2022. Avowed or Hellblade II should've been ready for 2021, preferably both. If they did that alongside still getting the Game Pass deals they got, plus enough stuff through 2022 (Avowed or Hellblade II (whichever didn't release in 2021), Forza Motorsport (to have something up against GT7 sooner rather than later), some BIG expansion for Flight Sim like some Crimson Skies campaign & dogfight mode, etc.), they may have been able to take more of a lead over PlayStation in US & UK, and probably improve their percentage a bit in ROTW markets.

At the very least, they would have helped stave off losing market share to Sony in the US & UK markets and that'd of helped a lot. But IMO Microsoft had a window of opportunity to do that and they missed the window, completely. Now they have to amp it up to 11 just to try tracking at/above XBO again, let alone get near what 360 was doing once Kinect came out. And since they can't rely on a camera/motion gimmick (or VR for that matter), nor Game Pass really (on its own), they have to try recapturing that spirit with pure quality, mass-market appealing 1P titles & 3P exclusives.



When you put it that way, for remakes of essentially years-old games, I guess it does make sense to both remake the games in the first place, and keep the porting window to PC short, that way it still feels "new" to them if they are basically going by the initial release of the remake.

Rather than the actual original version which could be upwards 10 years old, or even more. I can see what you mean from that in a business sense.



Yeah but Morales, as an example, that might be a bit more a side-story to the 1st game but it has the same prestige and stature to it of the original game. So my thing is, what if that's established a 2-year window between Spiderman 2 on PS5 and it showing up on PC? Not an openly stated window, but just something of a timeline they keep internally?

My main concern for the console side is if that becomes standardized, whether officially stated (I doubt this ever happens unless it's with a PC storefront/launcher Sony owns themselves and has successfully monetized, in which case my "concern" more or less disappears for the console, although there may still be some logistical issues on the manufacturing side that have to be adjusted here and there), or where a group recognize the pattern and take it to heart going forward. I'm just curious how much of that "group" of gamers, how large do they even account for in the total install base and what percent of them are big spenders (subbed up, do all their 1P & 3P games shopping on PlayStation) who would then take their spending to PC instead?

Let's say the total percentage of such customers is like 3% of console owners. And say at least 50% of them are whales/big spenders. Say they buy 10 AAA games a year, they're subbed to PS+, they have the console (obviously) and PSVR2. Just on the games side alone, they account for $336 million in revenue. They also account for say at least $43.2 million a year in PS+ revenue (assume they have at least PS+ Extra; these are whales, they would prob want more than basic PS+), and $264 million in PSVR2 headset sales (these are probably the type that'd buy one Day 1). The only two out of this really worth focusing on are the software revenue & services revenue they'd account for, because on the software side say they buy 3 1P AAA games a year, that still means 7 games are 3P.

Theoretically, if they took their buying habits to PC in a storefront Sony doesn't control, Sony would lose $235.2 million a year in software revenue. That's less than 1%. That's within a margin of error, and I figure revenue from just a single decent-performing GaaS title or uptick (doesn't even have to be large) from a 1P non-GaaS title or two would cover that and still see growth. So ultimately you might be right; the customer type that would probably be most tempted to switch to PC if Sony did standardize smaller windows between console & PC releases, statistically don't account for any significant money lost that can't be made up for from other adjacent channels. I had to work that out myself just to see if the main concern on that front bore out in the numbers, and it doesn't.

Still, though, there are a lot of marketing and optics/perception benefits for keeping those windows staggered & irregular, obvious benefits to prioritize the console as much as possible especially if you can start turning a profit (however small or large) on the hardware itself with revisions, so on and so forth. And those things in turn would help encourage console owners to spend even more into the ecosystem, that increases revenue & profits. It helps them form a stronger connection with the console and the brand, and that leans them to spend more (we've seen this regularly with Nintendo's audience). I guess my concerns, in this respect, were to lead to this conclusion where the worry on a negative impact of the console fiscally is statistically improbable, but there are still inherent benefits to keep the windows for the more marquee or non-GaaS titles staggered, particularly the ones that carry the most prestige, and prioritize the console that way for an extended period, when we're talking about fully-new games (not remakes like TLOU Part 1 because as I said before you made a good point on why a smaller window in that game's case isn't a drawback; the game itself has been available on PS since the PS3, going back to its original release).

I also think Microsoft's declines in software revenue might've tripped me up a bit on this specific outlook with Sony, but in Microsoft's case I'm leaning more to Game Pass itself being the main cause of that and the purchasing mentality the service has shaped, probably driving even a lot of hardcore/core gamers in that ecosystem to wait for sales or discount before buying a game, if it's not Day 1 in the service. Which is a problem only Microsoft specifically have; Sony & Nintendo have wisely avoided that pitfall and it'll take a lot for Microsoft to de-condition gamers from buying en masse Day 1 (or when the game's full-priced).



Well in Bloodborne's case they'll probably give it a graphical touch-up and 4K/60 support, but at the end of the day it'll basically be a remaster/"soft" remake of an 8+ year-old game.



Yeah, this is the way of handling ports to PC of marquee AAA single-player centric games I feel would work best. Bring it to PC at most a year ahead of a console-only sequel.

Maybe the only exceptions being for remasters/remakes of games that technically came out for PS years ago. In that context, six months between the two can work.



I think a big reason GT7 would take so long to come to PC is because of the situation with cheaters online. In the context of that, bringing GT Sport over instead could potentially work, since it'd be GT7 as the one with the F1 license, not Sport. Therefore maintaining online leaderboard & score integrity isn't as much a priority for Sport (although it would be nice if still ensured, unlike what happened with Forza Horizon 5 and could potentially happen again with Forza Motorsport).

In that regard I'm curious what it informs them on say, Sackboy's Big Adventure. Do they think it's down to the type of game, or rather the timing of when they released it?
The game was made in UE, so the porting is super easy and quick. They didn't have to port a PS only engine. Plus was made by Sumo, who are used to make ports since they are mostly a multiplatform dev. So the port was cheap. Also, pretty likely the PS version didn't sell a lot so maybe they thought a PC port would be a good opportunity to make the project more profitable and also to bring the IP to a bigger public before releasing the next Sackboy mobile game.

Plus also could help Sony to gauge Steam user's interest on kid friendly games, or also test its pricing or releasing a port of this type in the middle of the busiest period of the year, and see if they could replicate the great success that DS, Days Gone, Horizon or GoW had in PC with minor games made by not that popular devs.

When testing stuff, sometimes you also want to have a control group. In this case releasing smaller IPs to see if they sell like the big ones, or to see if releasing several games together also works for then as well as when spreading them across the year. Even if they already know the results, but they test it just to be sure.

Because to me it seems like games such as it potentially have more traction on Steam than the more "regular" big AAA releases (at least the mature-themed ones).
Looking at Steam sales, out of the Sony catalog Bloodborne, Demon's Souls and big AAA open world games are the ones with more potential. And once they have them ready in a few years, GaaS MP shooters.

I fully believe Jim Ryan thought pc ports of their games would sell a megaton but it seems like he got a reality check.
Jim Ryan is generating more money than they estimated and their PC ports are selling millions of extra copies generating them hundreds of millions in profits.

Yup, I seem to remember him say something to the effect that he wanted not just tens of millions but hundreds of millions of gamers to enjoy their games....

That's when I said to myself it sounded like something a MSFT exec would say. (Billions of gamers etc.)

Not that I don't want hudreds of millions to enjoy the games.....but I want them to enjoy them on a PS console, where they were made to be played, with the customers and fans that made the games a success in the first place. All together at each launch.
His idea was that even if PS would get 100% of the console market share and would grow that market it would be like 300M players. But there are 3B players, and most of them never won't buy a console.

Because they prefer to play on mobile only, or in PC, or because they can't afford a console or because in their country there aren't consoles or are too limited and expensive.

And that there's people who don't buy these games but also may enjoy the IPs and make it popular via movies or tv shows.

And well, their AAA games every generation get more and more expensive to make so they need additional revenue sources to keep the wheel spinning.

Yes, it's a somewhat similar idea to the MS one.
 
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Vertigo

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You guys are heavily overselling the potential of single player games on steam.

We just recently discovered that the real active user base of steam is like 13 million at best.

Most of that is ancient hardware in third world nations. This heavily influences why games like CSGO and PUBG tear it up during early morning international hours.

There aren’t many rigs capable of next gen. Master race superiority is just what a small minority tell themselves. It’s to justify the thousands they pay to fuss around with drivers and still have a game run like shit.

There are outliers like Bethesda rpgs, Elden Ring and Monster Hunter. These games have online components or are staple pc games to begin with.

Piracy is such a massive rampant issue on pc. Single player games get pirated en masse.

Because of this issue, Sony will most likely always be late to port single player games to steam. There’s not much to be made. They have to take the plunge first on PlayStation to mitigate the risk. If it does well enough there then you’ll see a pc ports. If it flops on PlayStation? Probably not.

And also wait for pc hardware to catch up for most users.
 

Elder Legend

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I'm not doomsaying anything.

The last few PC ports pretty much flopped and that is good for console. Maybe the crossover isn't as big as we thought and they will just stop bothering eventually.... you know, when they put their pride aside.

A company can do great and still make mistakes..... they made all their money with console sales and first party and 3rd party software sales on console, as they always have done.

PC is a shithouse. Just forget about it.... what's wrong with me saying that? FUCK PC.
Fuck PC and PC gamers!
Fuck PC and PC gamers!
The coping of the Sony ponies in this thread of not wanting their games going over to the PC is fucking hilarious. I thought you were all about allowing people to any titles regardless of the platform... oh wait..what you say? Yall are hypocrits? 🤡

Hey @Exanthus @adamsapple look at these people saying fuck PC. They're so upset that their games go on PC now.
 

Sircaw

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The coping of the Sony ponies in this thread of not wanting their games going over to the PC is fucking hilarious. I thought you were all about allowing people to any titles regardless of the platform... oh wait..what you say? Yall are hypocrits? 🤡

Hey @Exanthus @adamsapple look at these people saying fuck PC. They're so upset that their games go on PC now.
Don't forget you can report things that are insulting instead of adding to the drama by creating more rifts by calling people Sony ponies etc.

We have mods for a reason. (y)
 

Elder Legend

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Don't forget you can report things that are insulting instead of adding to the drama by creating more rifts by calling people Sony ponies etc.

We have mods for a reason. (y)
You can't be serious right? The term xbot is thrown left and right freely. Get out of here with your bs snark nonsense. Your a liar, and a manipulator. Welcome to ignore list.

I gave you many chances, enough is enough brother.
 

Sircaw

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You can't be serious right? The term xbot is thrown left and right. Get out of here with your bs snark nonsense. Your a liar, and a manipulator. Welcome to ignore list.
I am serious, we have mods, if you find something insulting, report it.

Don't add to the drama by recruiting more people in to cause even more drama.

As for your little tantrum, grow up and stop acting like a spoilt child.
 
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Elder Legend

CEO of Gaming Instincts (Industry Veteran)
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I am serious, we have mods, if you find something insulting, report it.

Don't add to the drama by recruiting more people in to cause more drama.

As for your little tantrum, grow up.
Me calling out hypocrisy of certain posters is not adding to the drama. People do it all the time here. As soon as they stop being hypocrits then they won't be called out. Keep your fins to yourself please and don't worry about others. Your opinion has 0 value to me.
 
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