What really is first party nowadays? Definition of first/second/third party games.

Yurinka

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IMO I don’t think Sony helping the development or funding the game makes it 1st-party… Sony do that with a lot of 3rd-party games.

I just want to say that Sony publishing the game doesn’t make it 1st-party.

There are a lot of examples that prove that… it just time consuming to check all them but… I can give some examples from my mind:

Marvel’s Iron Man VR: 3rd-party game published by Sony.
Ghostbusters: 3rd-party game published by Sony (Europe).

These are Sony published games that are not 1st-party.
Same for Stellar Blade.

Unless Sony buys the IP or developer it will continue being a 3rd-party exclusive.
That doesn’t even make sense.
Maybe you guys are well new to PlayStation but if you say games published by Sony is first-party then a lot of games for PS1 / PS2 were first-party… but they weren’t.

Destruction Derby was published by Sony and it was 3rd-party.
3D Lemmings was published by Sony and it was 3rd1party.

Even WipEout only become 1st party after Sony brought them… on PS1 it was a 3rd-party game published by Sony.

Singstar, Blood & Truth, etc all 3rd-party published by Sony.

Edit - These games where already part of Sony.

First party means published by the platform holder. 3rd party means not published by the platform holder. Independently of who owns the IPs.

So when published for PS devices, games like Marvel's Iron Man VR, Marvel's Spider-Man, Ghostbusters, Stellar Blade or Wipeout were first party because were published by Sony subsidiaries.

Sony acquired Psygnosis in 1993 and the first Wipout Game and Destruction Derby games were released in 1995. So even the first Wipeout and Destruction Derby games were internally developed first party games. Not even second party titles, which are the first party games with a lead dev studio not owned by the platform holder.

And yes, Sony also published both games outside PS. Sony has been publishing computer games during 4 decades, here you have a few Sony computer games from 1983:
15a75d96_c.jpg
430d839a_c.jpg
mouser-caja-cartucho-msx.jpg
96.jpg
Caratula-de-Lode-Runner.jpg


And well, here you have games that Sony released as 3rd party for other consoles not much later:
s-l1600.webp

Dragon%27s_Lair_NES_cover.jpg

Flying-Hero-NES-JP.jpg

ade980c2362b0834c52192eb88ee2137.png

DraculaSNES_boxart.jpg
 
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Hezekiah

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First party means published by the platform holder. 3rd party means not published by the platform holder. Independently of who owns the IPs.

So when published for PS devices, games like Marvel's Iron Man VR, Marvel's Spider-Man, Ghostbusters, Stellar Blade or Wipeout were first party because were published by Sony subsidiaries.

Sony acquired Psygnosis in 1993 and the first Wipout Game and Destruction Derby games were released in 1995. So even the first Wipeout Destruction Derby games were internally developed first party games. Not even second party titles, which are the first party games with a lead dev studio not owned by the platform holder.
I think some of this just goes over people's heads. The same illogical arguments have returned for years and years.
 

ethomaz

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First party means published by the platform holder. 3rd party means not published by the platform holder. Independently of who owns the IPs.

So when published for PS devices, games like Marvel's Iron Man VR, Marvel's Spider-Man, Ghostbusters, Stellar Blade or Wipeout were first party because were published by Sony subsidiaries.

Sony acquired Psygnosis in 1993 and the first Wipout Game and Destruction Derby games were released in 1995. So even the first Wipeout Destruction Derby games were internally developed first party games. Not even second party titles, which are the first party games with a lead dev studio not owned by the platform holder.

And yes, Sony published them outside PS. Sony has been publishing computer games during 4 decades. Here you have a few Sony computer games from 1983:
15a75d96_c.jpg
430d839a_c.jpg
mouser-caja-cartucho-msx.jpg
96.jpg
Caratula-de-Lode-Runner.jpg
So explain to me…

How there are 3rd-party games published by Sony that are not first-party?

Just take a time to understand what you are trying to defend … you are trying to deny a situation that does exists in the industry.

Just answer me… Ghostbuster or Destruction Derby are first party?

If you reply is no then just realized what you are trying to say… if it is yes then you have no ideia what are you talking about.
 
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akira__

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How I understood first, second and third party is back from the day in the industry.

First party, studio and ip owned by company.
Second party is lose term, even first can be weird.
Third party, other parties.


But that isn't correct anymore, these days we also have publishing, and shifting allegainces and ownership which makes it quite weird.

For example in which category does Kirby fall? First, second party?


While independent, it has been closely tied with Nintendo throughout its history, and is often referred to as a second-party developer for the company.

Okay weird, pokemon is first party right? Also not, they are now jointly owned but started with game freak


Although these IPs and companies might already fully owned by Nintendo now.

So appearance for consumers and relationship between both companies does play a role. Calling pokemon and kirby second party comes over as trolling yet technically it was correct at some point in time.

That said things are ever changing. Yakuza (sega) franchise although owned ny sega was highly coupled with Playstation until a few years ago.

Then another question is Halo first party, developed by bungie before they were bought. IP was transfered when they split up from Microsoft.

Another example is gears of war, is it first party? Develop by the now famous creator of unreal enginer and fortnite. Epic games who existed long before those games and have transferred the IP to Microsoft when they parted ways.

Both studios left Microsoft and those games build by them created the legacy. If you only own IP but no longer the studios to produce those games is it still a first party title? Or has it become a first party title?

Mass effect had the same trajectory as Halo, Gears of war. And it could have been become first party.

So a title could be first, second interchangeable only looking back can it be clearly classified as.

To make my point even clearer would anyone call forza Horizon a second party game? IP owned by Microsoft build by Playground games independent studio, they have only been acquired years later in 2018 or something. But I don't think anyone would call that game second party.

Then there is the consumer perception which plays another big role, when the niantic pokemon game did well Nintendo stock soared up, until the investors realised that pokemon wasnt owned by Nintendo only joint.

Metal Gear, resident evil are perceived by many to be playstation games.

There are so many different example of game IP that we could discuss of which the definition in any of those categories is fluid. Ori, heavy rain, bayonetta, mass effect.

So this discussion will never have the correct answer as only time will reveal the full story of the IP.
 
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Yurinka

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So explain to me…

How there are 3rd-party games published by Sony that are not first-party?
If a game's publisher is the platform holder it is 1st party. If not it is 3rd party.

Meaning, any game published by Sony on PlayStation is a first party game. Any game published on PS by any company not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Any game published by Sony in a platform not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Meaning, Marvel's Spider-Man is first party on PS and 3rd party on Steam.

There are some rare exceptions where the platform holder publishes an originally 3rd party game (meaning originally not released by the platform holder) only in an specific region in a distribution support deal. As an example, Destiny 1 was published by Sony in Japan, while Activision Blizzard published it originally in the rest of the world. While Destiny 1 was a first party game in Japan, it was originally a 3rd party game.

Same goes with ports: sometimes there are exceptions where an originally 3rd party game gets a port published by the platform holder for a specific port. Case of Ultra Street Fighter IV, originally published by Capcom in PS3 and 360 (so 3rd party) and later published by Sony for PS4 (so the PS4 port is 1st party).

Just answer me… Ghostbuster or Destruction Derby are first party?
Their PlayStation version are first party because they are published by the platform holder: Sony.

Their versions published on PC or rival consoles not owned by Sony are 3rd party because Sony isn't the platform holder there.

How I understood first, second and third party is back from the day in the industry.

First party, studio and ip owned by company.
Second party is lose term, even first can be weird.
Third party, other parties.
No. In the industry since the '80s 1s party has been games published by the platform holder and 3rd party the ones not published by the platform holder.

Not sure if the term 2nd party was used before, but at least since the late '90s 2nd party has been used for the first party games developed by a team not owned by the platform holder.

There has been tons of cases since the 80s of first party games of IPs not owned by these platform holders. A few example's Nintendo's Tetris. Or Atari's E.T. or Gremlins.

For example in which category does Kirby fall? First, second party?

Hal is not owned by Nintendo, so all the games for Nintendo devices published by Nintendo and developed by HAL are both first and 2nd party.

Okay weird, pokemon is first party right? Also not, they are now jointly owned but started with game freak

The Pokemon games released on Nintendo devices are first party because they are published by Nintendo. The ones released in mobile phones are 3rd party.

Since Game Freak isn't owned by Nintendo, the first party games on Nintendo devices developed by Game Freak are second party games.

That said things are ever changing. Yakuza (sega) franchise although owned ny sega was highly coupled with Playstation until a few years ago.

Then another question is Halo first party, developed by bungie before they were bought. IP was transfered when they split up from Microsoft.

Another example is gears of war, is it first party? Develop by the now famous creator of unreal enginer and fortnite. Epic games who existed long before those games and have transferred the IP to Microsoft when they parted ways.

Both studios left Microsoft and those games build by them created the legacy. If you only own IP but no longer the studios to produce those games is it still a first party title? Or has it become a first party title?

Mass effect had the same trajectory as Halo, Gears of war. And it could have been become first party.

So a title could be first, second interchangeable only looking back can it be clearly classified as.

To make my point even clearer would anyone call forza Horizon a second party game? IP owned by Microsoft build by Playground games independent studio, they have only been acquired years later in 2018 or something. But I don't think anyone would call that game second party.

Then there is the consumer perception which plays another big role, when the niantic pokemon game did well Nintendo stock soared up, until the investors realised that pokemon wasnt owned by Nintendo only joint.

Metal Gear, resident evil are perceived by many to be playstation games.

There are so many different example of game IP that we could discuss of which the definition in any of those categories is fluid. Ori, heavy rain, bayonetta, mass effect.
Yakuza, Metal Gear and Resident Evil are third party games because they aren't published by the platform holder.

Halo (before being bought), Heavy Rain, Mass Effect 1 & 2 (on Xbox), Bayonetta (2 and 3) are first party games and 2nd party games. Because they are published by the platform holder but developed by a studio not owned by them.

So this discussion will never have the correct answer as only time will reveal the full story of the IP.
It has been the same correct answer, but some of you don't want to accept it
 
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akira__

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If a game's publisher is the platform holder it is 1st party. If not it is 3rd party.

Meaning, any game published by Sony on PlayStation is a first party game. Any game published on PS by any company not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Any game published by Sony in a platform not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Meaning, Marvel's Spider-Man is first party on PS and 3rd party on Steam.


Their PlayStation version are first party because they are published by the platform holder: Sony.

Their versions published on PC or rival consoles not owned by Sony are 3rd party because Sony isn't the platform holder there.


No. In the industry since the '80s 1s party has been games published by the platform holder and 3rd party the ones not published by the platform holder.

Not sure if the term 2nd party was used before, but at least since the late '90s 2nd party has been used for the first party games developed by a team not owned by the platform holder.

There has been tons of cases since the 80s of first party games of IPs not owned by these platform holders. A few example's Nintendo's Tetris. Or Atari's E.T. or Gremlins.


Hal is not owned by Nintendo, so all the games for Nintendo devices published by Nintendo and developed by HAL are both first and 2nd party.


The Pokemon games released on Nintendo devices are first party because they are published by Nintendo. The ones released in mobile phones are 3rd party.

Since Game Freak isn't owned by Nintendo, the first party games on Nintendo devices developed by Game Freak are second party games.

Well you missed my overal point, too bad.

And you skipped the most fluid cases:

Halo, Gears of war, mass effect, heavy rain, ori, forza Horizon.

According to your definition Halo, Gears, Forza Horizon were second party, but until xbox acquired the ip, and with gears and halo they lost the studio in the process.

Epic also wasn't owned by xbox. And Xbox bought the rights of gears of war in 2014. So gears of war falls firmly in the second party category from 2006 until 2014. So a later event influenced "first party" classification.

Games that are second party according to your definition:
- Smash Bros developed by hall, then Namco.
- Luigi's Mansion 3 (acquired 2021)
- Xenoblade Chronicles ( later aquired)


Xenoblade and heavy rain the difference is being acquired at a later date. But they both started as second party.

Then to come back what was discussed in this thread:
Helldivers 2, launched on pc, ip owned by playstation, independent studio.

Forza Horizon launched on pc, ip owned by MS, independent studio.
 
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Muddasar

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If a game's publisher is the platform holder it is 1st party. If not it is 3rd party.

Meaning, any game published by Sony on PlayStation is a first party game. Any game published on PS by any company not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Any game published by Sony in a platform not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Meaning, Marvel's Spider-Man is first party on PS and 3rd party on Steam.

Not quite true.

It is about perspective not platform.

First Party/Third Party is no different to First Person/Third Person.

Sony Owned IPs are First Party for them. From Valves perspective Sony games are Third Party.

Square Enix Owned IPs are First Party for them. From Sony’s Perspective they are Third Party.
 
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Hezekiah

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It is just the truth 🤷🏻‍♂️

You denying it makes no difference.
Notice how I said this stuff (despite really being quite basic) goes over some people's heads 😄

If a game's publisher is the platform holder it is 1st party. If not it is 3rd party.

Meaning, any game published by Sony on PlayStation is a first party game. Any game published on PS by any company not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Any game published by Sony in a platform not owned by Sony is 3rd party.

Meaning, Marvel's Spider-Man is first party on PS and 3rd party on Steam.

There are some rare exceptions where the platform holder publishes an originally 3rd party game (meaning originally not released by the platform holder) only in an specific region in a distribution support deal. As an example, Destiny 1 was published by Sony in Japan, while Activision Blizzard published it originally in the rest of the world. While Destiny 1 was a first party game in Japan, it was originally a 3rd party game.

Same goes with ports: sometimes there are exceptions where an originally 3rd party game gets a port published by the platform holder for a specific port. Case of Ultra Street Fighter IV, originally published by Capcom in PS3 and 360 (so 3rd party) and later published by Sony for PS4 (so the PS4 port is 1st party).


Their PlayStation version are first party because they are published by the platform holder: Sony.

Their versions published on PC or rival consoles not owned by Sony are 3rd party because Sony isn't the platform holder there.

It has been the same correct answer, but some of you don't want to accept it
It really is so basic, but people won't accept what they won't accept so come up with stupid denials. I think at least some of this nonsense started around the time list wars became more prevalent.
 
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Ezekiel

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"Second party" isn't a thing. It's a term created by people who don't understand what first party and third party refered to.

Stellar Blade is a first party game on PSN because it is published by SIE and sold on PSN.

The fact that it was developed by a studio not owned by Sony, with an IP not owned by Sony changes NOTHING.
 
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Ezekiel

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Not quite true.

It is about perspective not platform.

First Party/Third Party is no different to First Person/Third Person.

Sony Owned IPs are First Party for them. From Valves perspective Sony games are Third Party.

Square Enix Owned IPs are First Party for them. From Sony’s Perspective they are Third Party.
Yes, the platform it is on is crucial in determining if first/third party, but it's not about IP ownership, it's exclusively about who the publisher is.
 

Yurinka

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Well you missed my overal point, too bad.

And you skipped the most fluid cases:

Halo, Gears of war, mass effect, heavy rain, ori, forza Horizon.

According to your definition Halo, Gears, Forza Horizon were second party, but until xbox acquired the ip, and with gears and halo they lost the studio in the process.

Games that are second party according to your definition:
- Smash Bros developed by hall, then Namco.
- Luigi's Mansion 3 (acquired 2021)
- Xenoblade Chronicles ( later aquired)
I often write my posts while editing multiple times to add multiple quotes, so maybe my post wasn't complet and I forgot some case like gears.

It isn't my definition, it's the one used in the industry:
  • published by the platform holder = 1st party
  • Not published by the platform holder = 3rd party
  • 1st party game developed by an studio owned by the platform holder = internally developed 1st party
  • 1st party game developed by a studio not owned by the platform holder = 2nd party (in addition to 1st party)
  • Being 1st, 2nd or 3rd party refers to who publishes the game, independently to who owns it
These games were published by the platform holders, so they were first party. And before the studios were acquired by them, they were also 2nd party (while also being 1st party, 2nd party games are still 1st party games).

"Second party" isn't a thing. It's a term created by people who don't understand what first party and third party refered to.

Stellar Blade is a first party game on PSN because it is published by SIE and sold on PSN.

The fact that it was developed by a studio not owned by Sony, with an IP not owned by Sony changes NOTHING.
Stellar Blade is both a 2nd party and a 1st party game, as we recently saw explained on legal documents. In some other thread back in the day I linked to the direct source and provided screenshots.

There are also explanations from Hermen or Shawn. Even if Sony never publicly liked to use "second party" and prefer to publicly use "first party" instead. Because even if not owned by them, when they work with a second party team many times they work with them as if they were part of the family, like any other insternal 1st party team.

I personally know people who did run one of these teams (Novarama): they were 2nd party but after getting a few games published by Sony they internally got the first party treatment, with stuff like getting access to first party only tools or meetings, or providing feedback and requests for the hardware (as an example, Vita had a camera and was as it was because of them).
 
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Muddasar

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Yes, the platform it is on is crucial in determining if first/third party, but it's not about IP ownership, it's exclusively about who the publisher is.

It’s not.

God of War is a First Party Sony game whatever platform it is on.

Final Fantasy is a First Party Square Enix game whatever platform it is on.
 
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akira__

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I often write my posts while editing multiple times to add multiple quotes, so maybe my post wasn't complet and I forgot some case like gears.
No worries, it happens to the @akira__ Of us.

It isn't my definition, it's the one used in the industry:
That would mean thus that:
Forza Horizon, Halo, Gears, Xenoblade Chronicles, luigi mansion 3


Are or have been second party titles. It would actually classify the majority of games that are perceived as first party as second party. Nintendo, Xbox and PlayStation work with many different studio's. Especially Nintendo and Xbox.


Bayonetta is another that falls between all three categories.

My point is even though Forza Horizon, Gears and Halo started out as second party because of a later deal they are first. But mass effect started similarly as Gears but didn't got acquired thus is not first party.
Thus a deal at a later date influenced the classification
 
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Yurinka

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That would mean thus that:
Forza Horizon, Halo, Gears, Bayonetta, Xenoblade Chronicles, luigi mansion 3,

Are or have been second party titles. It would actually classify the majority of games that are perceived as first party as second party. Nintendo, Xbox and PlayStation work with many different studio's. Especially Nintendo and Xbox.

My point is even though Forza Horizon, Gears and Halo started out as second party because of a later deal they are first. But mass effect started similarly as Gears but didn't got acquired thus is not first party.
Thus a deal at a later date influenced the classification
Yes, they are first party because were published by the platform holders. And yes, before the studios were acquired they also were 2nd party games, because 2nd party games always also are first party games.

And yes, when acquired they stop being both 1st and 2nd party and start being only 1st party. Other more recent examples of that are Returnal, Concord or Fairgame$.
 
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Muddasar

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Yes, they are first party because were published by the platform holders. And yes, before the studios were acquired they also were 2nd party games, because 2nd party games always also are first party games.

And yes, when acquired they stop being both 1st and 2nd party and start being only 1st party. Other more recent examples of that are Returnal, Concord or Fairgame$.

Platform Holder has nothing to do with it. It is about perspective.

Final Fantasy is First Party for Square Enix.

Third Party for Sony.

We do this cause we look from Platform Holders perspective. So we consider Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft First Party.

Reality is it is all about Perspective. Square Enix don’t call their games Third Party games.

They are First Party for them. Square consider Sony a Third Party from their perspective.
 
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Ezekiel

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Notice how I said this stuff (despite really being quite basic) goes over some people's heads 😄


It really is so basic, but people won't accept what they won't accept so come up with stupid denials. I think at least some of this nonsense started around the time list wars became more prevalent.
Yep, that's a great point, and we still get people who want to downplay Sony do exactly that.

Quick math, this year alone Sony had 7 first party games release on PS5 :

TLoU part 2 remastered
Helldivers 2
Stellar Blade
Rise of the Ronin
Until Dawn
Astro Bot
Lego Horizon Adventures

I might be missing some.

But then you get people that say these aren't "really" first party games, so they cut out HD2, Stellar Blade, RotR and UD, because they are not made by a Sony owned studio or Sony doesn't own the IP.

And then you get people who will also remove the remasters and remakes, so we end up with Astro Bot and Lego Horizon, and they'll have the gall to call this year barren 😂

And they'll ignore the third party console exclusives too for good measure (FF7 Rebirth, Wukong, Silent Hill 2).
 
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ethomaz

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Their PlayStation version are first party because they are published by the platform holder: Sony.
That is where you are wrong.
They are 3rd-parti no matter if Sony published it.

I even used Ghostbusters because it is only published by Sony in Europe.

Publishing has nothing to do with being first or third party at all… these games are third party.

You publishing a games doesn’t make it first parry… it just mean you got the publishing rights.

Sony owning the IP makes it first party to PlayStation no matter who developed it.
 
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Yurinka

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That is where you are wrong.
They are 3rd-parti no matter if Ain’t published it.
Publishing has nothing to do with being first or third party at all… these games are third party.
The entire industry always said the same than me: 3rd party games are those not published by the platform holder.

And 1st party games are those published by the platform holder.

I even used Ghostbusters because it is only published by Sony in Europe.
There are Ghostbusters games even for the NES. But as far as I know, the most recent one (the one I was thinking about), Ghostbusters: Rise of the Ghost Lord, was developed by nDreams and published by Sony Pictures Virtual Reality everywhere. Which means it was 1st party on PSVR and 3rd party on Meta Quest.

But as I mentioned there are games with different publishers in some regions, meaning that in some cases some games are 1st party on a region or 3rd party in another one.

Sony owning the IP makes it first party to PlayStation no matter who developed it.
In this case why Sony always said Marvel's Spider-Man is a first party game and why Nintendo always said Bayonetta 2 and 3 are first party games?

And why Sony calls games like MLB or Stellar Blade first party when they don't own these IPs?
 
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