Apple outplays Microsoft and closes the door on their mobile gaming app ambitions

[Nhomnhom]

That's a disingenuous question to begin with, because you're trying to compare Apples to Umbrellas. Smartphones are necessary appliances in the western world. Depending on where you are, you need them to do your banking, have your boarding pass for a flight, check the status of a job application, etc. One of my bank accounts requires a smartphone to access it, for example. Consoles are entirely optional and do not have a material impact in some of our most basic needs.

So my question is disingenuous because I don't draw the very convenient distinction that "smartphones are necessary appliances in the western world".

An iPhone is entirely optional, you can buy an Android.

It's pretty obvious that down the line that distinction you are making will be dropped and this ruling on the smartphone market will be applied to things like consoles and the like of MS and Epic are going to benefit from it.

 

[ethomaz]

That's a disingenuous question to begin with, because you're trying to compare Apples to Umbrellas. Smartphones are necessary appliances in the western world. Depending on where you are, you need them to do your banking, have your boarding pass for a flight, check the status of a job application, etc. One of my bank accounts requires a smartphone to access it, for example. Consoles are entirely optional and do not have a material impact in some of our most basic needs.

That is not true at all.
Believe I have old friends that doesn’t have phones at all and do everything you listed.

Bank account doesn’t need smartphones… just needs it for convenience to use the internet bank.

You can do all the transactions without it.

Same for boarding air planes… you don’t need smartphones at all… you can buy and make the checking without it.

 

[Darth Vader]

So my question is disingenuous because I don't draw the distinction that "smartphones are necessary appliances in the western world".

An iPhone is entirely optional, you can buy an Android.

Your question is disingenuous because you're trying to compare something that can't be compared.

And an iPhone may not be entirely optional, same as an Android. Some people get them as gifts, some people get them and a hand off from someone else. it's complex, and arguments like "stiffles innovation" or "this is dumb" don't take into account how important these devices are globally. Hell, for years iMessage was used as almost a bullying tool against those that decided not to have or couldn't buy an iPhone, and telecoms allowed for its traffic to be free while regular messages were paid.

Hell, this is like the lightning discussion again, which just shows how some people seem to lose brain cells when their cult is impacted by any measure.

Why is the European government so stupid? They’re forcing Apple to put USB-C ports on their phones. Who cares about that? No one does. I ...

Answer (1 of 3): Putting a USB port on an iPhone doesn't change it into an android. Apple claim to have the best eco system for their computers, phones and tablets, where everything works together seamlessly. Even though I am an android fan I can see how this would be useful, I just don't like t...

www.quora.com

That is not true at all.
Believe I have old friends that doesn’t have phones at all and do everything you listed.

Bank account doesn’t need smartphones… just needs it for convenience to use the internet bank.

You can do all the transactions without it.

Same for boarding air planes… you don’t need smartphones at all… you can buy and make the checking without it.

You were saying?

Open a bank account in just 5 minutes! | bunq

bunq is a digital bank, meaning there's no need for endless paperwork or branch visits. All you need to manage your money is your phone, and opening an account takes just 5 minutes.

www.bunq.com

How do I apply for a personal Revolut account? | Revolut United Kingdom

Get the answers you need for any issues or questions you may have

help.revolut.com

Open Online Bank Account at N26 - ‘Best bank in the world 2023'

In just a few minutes, you can easily and quickly open your online account.

n26.com

Edit: All those three are banking institutions in the EU, subject to the same rules and regulations as brick and mortar banks, and more and more banks are becoming digital only. You require the app to open the account and, in the case of Bunq, which I have an account with, also require the app to approve certain transactions under PDS2.

 

[Swift_Star]

Let them fight, cope and seethe. I’m in for the chaos.

 

[flaccidsnake]

So my question is disingenuous because I don't draw the very convenient distinction that "smartphones are necessary appliances in the western world".

An iPhone is entirely optional, you can buy an Android.

It's pretty obvious that down the line that distinction you are making will be dropped and this ruling on the smartphone market will be applied to things like consoles and the like of MS and Epic are going to benefit from it.

the expectation is that these monopolies, google and apple would at least have to abide by the same rules.

i hate epic and I think their store should be rejected by everyone. but i don't think we'd be better off if Windows blocked 3rd party stores on the platform. there's nothing special about android and ios that they should have near total control over app distribution on their OSes.

 

[Darth Vader]

the expectation is that these monopolies, google and apple would at least have to abide by the same rules.

i hate epic and I think their store should be rejected by everyone. but i don't think we'd be better off if Windows blocked 3rd party stores on the platform. there's nothing special about android and ios that they should have near total control over app distribution on their OSes.

I knew I had to agree with you at least once. This is on the money.

 

[ethomaz]

Your question is disingenuous because you're trying to compare something that can't be compared.

And an iPhone may not be entirely optional, same as an Android. Some people get them as gifts, some people get them and a hand off from someone else. it's complex, and arguments like "stiffles innovation" or "this is dumb" don't take into account how important these devices are globally. Hell, for years iMessage was used as almost a bullying tool against those that decided not to have or couldn't buy an iPhone, and telecoms allowed for its traffic to be free while regular messages were paid.

Hell, this is like the lightning discussion again, which just shows how some people seem to lose brain cells when their cult is impacted by any measure.

Why is the European government so stupid? They’re forcing Apple to put USB-C ports on their phones. Who cares about that? No one does. I ...

Answer (1 of 3): Putting a USB port on an iPhone doesn't change it into an android. Apple claim to have the best eco system for their computers, phones and tablets, where everything works together seamlessly. Even though I am an android fan I can see how this would be useful, I just don't like t...

www.quora.com

You were saying?

Open a bank account in just 5 minutes! | bunq

bunq is a digital bank, meaning there's no need for endless paperwork or branch visits. All you need to manage your money is your phone, and opening an account takes just 5 minutes.

www.bunq.com

How do I apply for a personal Revolut account? | Revolut United Kingdom

Get the answers you need for any issues or questions you may have

help.revolut.com

Open Online Bank Account at N26 - ‘Best bank in the world 2023'

In just a few minutes, you can easily and quickly open your online account.

n26.com

Edit: All those three are banking institutions in the EU, subject to the same rules and regulations as brick and mortar banks, and more and more banks are becoming digital only. You require the app to open the account and, in the case of Bunq, which I have an account with, also require the app to approve certain transactions under PDS2.

Digital wallet not banks are digital only and are not conventional banks.

Most banks transactions are still done by conventional banks that have several ways to to transactions including via digital apps.

 

[Darth Vader]

Digital wallet not banks are digital only and are not conventional banks.

Most banks transactions are still done by conventional banks that have several ways to to transactions including via digital apps.

Bunq, N26, and Revolut are banks in the EU. I don't mean to be condescending here, but you're in Brasil, where they may be digital wallets (I'm not aware of how they operate there). Bunq is a dutch bank, N26 is a german bank, and Revolut is a Lithuanian bank.

There's brick and mortar banks that are readying themselves to transition to a fully digital operation requiring a smart device.

 

[ethomaz]

the expectation is that these monopolies, google and apple would at least have to abide by the same rules.

i hate epic and I think their store should be rejected by everyone. but i don't think we'd be better off if Windows blocked 3rd party stores on the platform. there's nothing special about android and ios that they should have near total control over app distribution on their OSes.

Here we thing different.

IMO I want to have choice to choose a closed system that in my view has better security, features and app because the company invest in it.

So why people wants to remove choices for these that prefer and wants closed systems? Android alone is not enough for you guys?

 

[Darth Vader]

As for airlines, if you decide to check-in in person with Ryanair, for example, you actually pay an additional fee. This is the first step in removing physical check-ins. Since more people have a Smartphone when compared to a personal computer, it makes yet another case for Smartphones being a necessity and not an option.

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-mt/articles/12889016882065-Can-I-check-in-at-the-airport-

Emirates is migrating to digital only boarding passes

This Airline Is Phasing Out Paper Boarding Passes

Charge up your phones: It now takes a mobile boarding pass for most passengers to get onto Emirates' flights in Dubai.

www.cntraveler.com

 

[ethomaz]

Bunq, N26, and Revolut are banks in the EU. I don't mean to be condescending here, but you're in Brasil, where they may be digital wallets (I'm not aware of how they operate there). Bunq is a dutch bank, N26 is a german bank, and Revolut is a Lithuanian bank.

There's brick and mortar banks that are readying themselves to transition to a fully digital operation requiring a smart device.

What we call Digital Banks are called Neobank n EU and they are not tradicional banks… they are indeed digital only.

bunq | bank of The Free

Mobile banking that makes life easy. Try bunq today with a free 30-day trial of any plan. All you need to open your account is your phone, ID and 5 minutes.

www.bunq.com

You still don’t need a smartphone to have a bank account or make transactions in EU (and we won’t live to see not having tradicional banks).
It is a choice like you choose a Neobank instead a tradicional bank… if you have choose a traditional bank you should have all the non-smartphone required services plus what Bunk offer.

 

[Darth Vader]

What we call Digital Banks are called Neobank n EU and they are not tradicional banks… they are indeed digital only.

bunq | bank of The Free

Mobile banking that makes life easy. Try bunq today with a free 30-day trial of any plan. All you need to open your account is your phone, ID and 5 minutes.

www.bunq.com

You still don’t need a smartphone to have a bank account or make transactions in EU.
It is a choice like you choose a Neobank instead a tradicional bank… if you have choose a traditional bank you should have all the non-smartphone required services plus what Bunk offer.

Correct, but even with traditional brick and mortar banks, which are moving towards being digital only, you require a smart device to approve purchases under PSD2. So again, you're tied to a smartphone or personal computer, and with most banks I know of, payment approval is done using the mobile app.

Edit: and Neobanks, for all intents and purposes, are just like any other bank

 

[ethomaz]

Correct, but even with traditional brick and mortar banks, which are moving towards being digital only, you require a smart device to approve purchases under PSD2. So again, you're tied to a smartphone or personal computer, and with most banks I know of, payment approval is done using the mobile app.

Edit: and Neobanks, for all intents and purposes, are just like any other bank

Neobanks are not like banks because they don't offer most of the traditional bank services.
That is why there are different regulators and rules for each type.

About PSD2... no you don't need a smartphone... or own anything at all.

PSD2 in EU rules you need to full fill 2 of these 3 types of strong authentication (I will copy to not write too much):

• Knowledge: Something only the user knows, e.g., password, code, personal identification number
• Possession: Something only the user possesses, e.g., token, smart card, mobile handset, card read by a card reader
• Inherence: Something the user, is, e.g., biometric characteristics, such as a fingerprint, facial recognition, voice recognition

The #1 doesn't need any smartphone.
The #2 requires a connected device... smartphone or not (banks have the option to tags that have tokens if you ask them).
The #3 doesn't need smartphone.

So you can have #1 and #3 and be PSD2 compliance.
Or #1 and #2 with a token device given by the bank.
I think the own credit card (with chip) can be used as smart card device but I'm not sure... so if it is compliance you can use your credit card (#2) and password (#1) that is exactly what you do since they put chip on credit cards.

I mean Smartphone is not required for PSD2... MFA via Smartphones is probably the most choose option due convenience.

Edit - Your credit card + password is PSD2 compliance.... one of the options for #2 is "Card read by a card reader"... so while you pay things using a credit card payment system in a physical payment machine like you did for decades you are fine.

Edit 2 - A table... remember you just need one option in 2 columns to be PSD2 compliance.

 

[Cool hand luke]

Just to be clear, just because some companies are herding shee-I mean customers into the smartphone lane doesn't justify cracking open walled gardens on smartphones. People who sign up for a smartphone (or online)-only bank, or who fly Ryan Air and CHOOSE to check-in online are not suddenly entitled to circumvent the rules on the store of the platform they purchased.

Good on Apple. It's a legally sound manoeuvre. Shame for Microsoft. It's just flop after flop with those people. They can't get inroads into cloud because they gave Ubisoft those rights, nor inroads into consoles because Sony still gets all their games, nor inroads into mobile because they can't invade and create a store of their own. Losers with a capital L.

 

[Thirty7ven]

the expectation is that these monopolies, google and apple would at least have to abide by the same rules.

i hate epic and I think their store should be rejected by everyone. but i don't think we'd be better off if Windows blocked 3rd party stores on the platform. there's nothing special about android and ios that they should have near total control over app distribution on their OSes.

But that’s just because Windows never was like iOS.

Is the idea here that companies have to basically make the same products just with a different name?

It’s only a problem now because these huge corps want free access to what Apple built.

 

[flaccidsnake]

But that’s just because Windows never was like iOS.

Is the idea here that companies have to basically make the same products just with a different name?

It’s only a problem now because these huge corps want free access to what Apple built.

The mobile OSes got away with anticompetitive practices at the beginning because the mobile network is insanely regulated (which also deeply stifles innovation). iPhone didn't even launch as an app platform. At the very least, tablets should've ended the excuses for gatekeeping app distribution (to a large extent even installation!) on mobile OSes.

I'm not against the idea that Apple and Google should get a cut of sales on their stores. I don't think they should be allowed to be the *only* stores. Google had a better case because you can sideload apps on most Android devices and the judges still ruled against them. Apple is much worse where you can't even develop an app for iOS using standard tools.

 

[Gods&Monsters]

The mobile OSes got away with anticompetitive practices at the beginning because the mobile network is insanely regulated (which also deeply stifles innovation). iPhone didn't even launch as an app platform. At the very least, tablets should've ended the excuses for gatekeeping app distribution (to a large extent even installation!) on mobile OSes.

I'm not against the idea that Apple and Google should get a cut of sales on their stores. I don't think they should be allowed to be the *only* stores. Google had a better case because you can sideload apps on most Android devices and the judges still ruled against them. Apple is much worse where you can't even develop an app for iOS using standard tools.

This is all blabla. In the end the only companies that will benefit from this is Big Tech like MS, Amazon or Meta and Epic. They are no better than Apple or Google.

All of this so customers can give their payment info to Microsoft instead of Apple. So much benefit wow

The next step will be to open consoles for "customers" and once again Epic and MS will be at the forefront of that fight. General purpose device is meaningless, they can change that anytime with lobbying.

 

[Alabtrosmyster]

I'm not against the idea that Apple and Google should get a cut of sales on their stores. I don't think they should be allowed to be the *only* stores. Google had a better case because you can sideload apps on most Android devices and the judges still ruled against them. Apple is much worse where you can't even develop an app for iOS using standard tools.

On android there are plenty of other stores and you can sideload apps (that may or may not be stores).

The Apple ecosystem is a different beast altogether.

 

[Darth Vader]

Neobanks are not like banks because they don't offer most of the traditional bank services.
That is why there are different regulators and rules for each type.

About PSD2... no you don't need a smartphone... or own anything at all.

PSD2 in EU rules you need to full fill 2 of these 3 types of strong authentication (I will copy to not write too much):



The #1 doesn't need any smartphone.
The #2 requires a connected device... smartphone or not (banks have the option to tags that have tokens if you ask them).
The #3 doesn't need smartphone.

So you can have #1 and #3 and be PSD2 compliance.
Or #1 and #2 with a token device given by the bank.
I think the own credit card (with chip) can be used as smart card device but I'm not sure... so if it is compliance you can use your credit card (#2) and password (#1) that is exactly what you do since they put chip on credit cards.

I mean Smartphone is not required for PSD2... MFA via Smartphones is probably the most choose option due convenience.

Edit - Your credit card + password is PSD2 compliance.... one of the options for #2 is "Card read by a card reader"... so while you pay things using a credit card payment system in a physical payment machine like you did for decades you are fine.

Edit 2 - A table... remember you just need one option in 2 columns to be PSD2 compliance.

I'm not going to entertain this conversation. I had a huge thing written, but there's no point.

 

[flaccidsnake]

On android there are plenty of other stores and you can sideload apps (that may or may not be stores).

The Apple ecosystem is a different beast altogether.

There are some yeah, but Google makes it a spooky process for non-tech people (or used to anyway). This is part of what Sweeney is complaining about because they distribute Fortnite as a sideloaded app rather than from the Play store.