How is Emulation supposed to be "Game Preservation"?

[Satoru]

The Yuzu website explained how to dump keys and games from hacked Switch hardware, totally legitimate to do. The way you're phrasing makes it sound like they were linking to torrent sites or something, and I don't think you can defend this.

Nope, it's not legitimate - this is precisely why they got fucked, and you keep ignoring it.

Bragging about how good your software is is half the reason to write software in the first place. If you wrote an emulator so good it plays unreleased games, you should brag about it.

They can brag and not share guides on how to dump keys and games. They are literally encouraging piracy (like you are)

I don't believe I've "defended piracy" at all, and I've been careful to separate my opposition to copyright as such from the legitimacy of emulation/yuzu.

Yes, you are. You're literally defending a "company" that provided clear steps on how to dump keys and games - you're justifying that stance.

You calling me a "port beggar" is pure cope. Playstation is making PC games because they're trying to grow their business. It's not in response to some groundswell of PC gamers demanding it. They want a piece of the pie. You're mad they're getting it.

Sure mate - You defend piracy of switch games, and it's only a coincidence that you also want PC ports of everything. You're as transparent as water.

 

[Dr Bass]

The Yuzu website explained how to dump keys and games from hacked Switch hardware, totally legitimate to do. The way you're phrasing makes it sound like they were linking to torrent sites or something, and I don't think you can defend this.

Bragging about how good your software is is half the reason to write software in the first place. If you wrote an emulator so good it plays unreleased games, you should brag about it.

I don't believe I've "defended piracy" at all, and I've been careful to separate my opposition to copyright as such from the legitimacy of emulation/yuzu.

You calling me a "port beggar" is pure cope. Playstation is making PC games because they're trying to grow their business. It's not in response to some groundswell of PC gamers demanding it. They want a piece of the pie. You're mad they're getting it.

It is not legal to break encryption put in place for software piracy prevention purposes, which Yuzu was openly instructing on how to do.

It is not legal to "emulate" games currently on sale according to the DMCA.

The reason to write software is to serve a customer not "bragging rights," which is honestly one of the dumbest things I've personally read about software, and I've never seen anyone in the software industry say, ever, in my entire career.

You're not only defending piracy, you're basically advocating for it here.

 

[Satoru]

But support dumped ROM is illegal and that is what most Emulators do.
So most if not all emulator are illegal.

This is incorrect. An emulator by definition supports roms, dumped or not. These can be homebrew or just dumped games. RPCS3 has had Zero issues for example. The problem is providing the emulator, the necessary keys, the dumped roms or the method to get them, etc, all in the same place. That's the big issue, and that's where it goes from legal (emulating) to grey area (supporting roms) to illegal (all the rest).

I'm talking about US here, but AFAIK legislation around emulators and roms is pretty much consistent in the western world insofar as that emulators are legal, rom dumps are a grey area, and the rest is illegal when all put in context.

Edit - to add an example: If I own a copy of a game and dump that copy, it is not illegal for me to play it in an emulator, even though its a dumped rom. The emulator including that capability is not an issue whatsoever.

 

[flaccidsnake]

So does the law, despite what some people seem to think.

you're confusing romanian rom site maintainers with emulation developers. two separate groups of people. the first is doing activity criminalized by the US, the 2nd is doing activity protected by the US.

 

[Satoru]

you're confusing romanian rom site maintainers with emulation developers. two separate groups of people. the first is doing activity criminalized by the US, the 2nd is doing activity protected by the US.

@Dr Bass hasn't said Emulators are illegal. You need to stop reading what people have stated multiple times.

Connectix's reverse engineering of the Sony BIOS extracted from a Sony PlayStation console purchased by Connectix engineers is protected as a fair use.

The lawsuit mentions that reverse engineering of a bios is protected by fair use, which is besides the point. Breaking encryption keys to distribute unreleased copies of games, and providing instructions on how to break those encryption keys, are entirely different things. Bleem did not provide users with open instructions on how to break bios files, reverse engineer bios files, how to download and pirate roms, and how to dump games. They provided them with a ready to go emulator that could be used to run legitimate copies of a game.

You keep ignoring what people say in your quest for validating piracy.

 

[flaccidsnake]

@Dr Bass hasn't said Emulators are illegal. You need to stop reading what people have stated multiple times.

He was responding to this:
"For me that's fine and justified, I draw the line when people claim to be preserving the game yet its still publicly available like Switch games"

Yuzu doesn't preserve games. It doesn't distribute games. It doesn't dump games. It is a software emulation of Switch hardware. It doesn't distribute any material copyrighted by Nintendo.

 

[Satoru]

He was responding to this:
"For me that's fine and justified, I draw the line when people claim to be preserving the game yet its still publicly available like Switch games"

Yuzu doesn't preserve games. It doesn't distribute games. It doesn't dump games. It is a software emulation of Switch hardware. It doesn't distribute any material copyrighted by Nintendo.

You have to be trolling. I will repeat.

The problem is not providing the emulator, is what they did additional to that. I have provided this information before, @Dr Bass has provided this information before, yet you're so focused on advocating for piracy that you keep ignoring it. Let's try again:

Switch emulator makers agree to pay $2.4 million to settle Nintendo lawsuit

Yuzu devs shut down emulator they now say is "primarily designed" to break DRM.

arstechnica.com

Yuzu's developers also faced some relatively distinct allegations of aiding and acknowledging potential Switch pirates through various communication channels, including bragging about successfully emulating leaked Switch games before their release date. "I've personally experienced how strict most emulator communities/discord servers/forums are regarding copyright and piracy, so it's really weird to me that Yuzu devs wouldn't be like that," emulator developer Lycoder told Ars last week.

How strong is Nintendo’s legal case against Switch-emulator Yuzu?

Nintendo is "basically taking the position that emulation itself is unlawful."

arstechnica.com

Nintendo's lawsuit makes extensive reference to the Quickstart Guide that Yuzu provides on its own distribution site. That guide gives detailed instructions on how to "start playing commercial games" with Yuzu by hacking your (older) Switch to dump decryption keys and/or game files. That guide also includes links to a number of external tools that directly break console and/or game encryption techniques.

Had they only provided the emulator and the instructions they would have been fine.

Is it clear now or do you need a drawing?

 

[Satoru]

Also - I love myself some preservation of games that are not yet commercially available. We're not talking cancelled games from last decade, we're talking games to be released in the next few days / weeks / months.

 

[flaccidsnake]

You have to be trolling. I will repeat.

The problem is not providing the emulator, is what they did additional to that. I have provided this information before, @Dr Bass has provided this information before, yet you're so focused on advocating for piracy that you keep ignoring it. Let's try again:

Switch emulator makers agree to pay $2.4 million to settle Nintendo lawsuit

Yuzu devs shut down emulator they now say is "primarily designed" to break DRM.

arstechnica.com

How strong is Nintendo’s legal case against Switch-emulator Yuzu?

Nintendo is "basically taking the position that emulation itself is unlawful."

arstechnica.com

Had they only provided the emulator and the instructions they would have been fine.

Is it clear now or do you need a drawing?

you're just wrong that this is criminal activity.

the fact that yuzu settled doesn't mean anything. the little guy got muscled by the big guy, and that's it.

sorry you can't see this, but i don't see a reason to continue talking to you about it

 

[Satoru]

you're just wrong that this is criminal activity.

the fact that yuzu settled doesn't mean anything. the little guy got muscled by the big guy, and that's it.

sorry you can't see this, but i don't see a reason to continue talking to you about it

Loses argument -

Also, prove that I'm wrong - Should be very easy!

 

[Zzero]

The fact that publishers, Sony especially, lock old games behind old consoles, many not even available for purchase. Hundreds of PS1 and 2 games stuck on hardware people no longer have access to. And even if they did, software is incredibly hard to find. And that's in general. There's also region specific crap. Like Dino Crisis not being available in the UK store.

I've bought a few PS1 classics on PS5 and I subscribed to Premium just so I could play a few others. But I'll gladly start up DuckStation to play the likes of Dino Crisis and Parasite Eve, since Sony's not interested in preserving those.

Those aren't Sony's games, they are Capcom and S-E's. And they are (presumably) well preserved. What isn't preserved is your access to them. There's a difference.

 

[Zzero]

You have to be trolling. I will repeat.

The problem is not providing the emulator, is what they did additional to that. I have provided this information before, @Dr Bass has provided this information before, yet you're so focused on advocating for piracy that you keep ignoring it. Let's try again:

Switch emulator makers agree to pay $2.4 million to settle Nintendo lawsuit

Yuzu devs shut down emulator they now say is "primarily designed" to break DRM.

arstechnica.com

How strong is Nintendo’s legal case against Switch-emulator Yuzu?

Nintendo is "basically taking the position that emulation itself is unlawful."

arstechnica.com

Had they only provided the emulator and the instructions they would have been fine.

Is it clear now or do you need a drawing?

Everything they did was legal under the current precedents set by US case law. They folded because they couldn't afford to effectively fight the case. Happens all the time, even in games (example Bethesda shutting down development of Obsidian's Fallout MMO despite them clearly retaining the rights to make it in the contract where they sold singleplaywr rights to BSF.)

 

[Satoru]

Everything they did was legal under the current precedents set by US case law. They folded because they couldn't afford to effectively fight the case. Happens all the time, even in games (example Bethesda shutting down development of Obsidian's Fallout MMO despite them clearly retaining the rights to make it in the contract where they sold singleplaywr rights to BSF.)

That's incorrect. Their emulator was never the problem, and their emulator was legal under US law. The rest is absolutely not legal, or at the very least in a very nebulous grey area - But I'm sure what I've highlighted in my comment is mandarin, or cantonese, or inuit.

 

[reziel]

For me that's fine and justified, I draw the line when people claim to be preserving the game yet its still publicly available like Switch games

This is literally what killed Yuzu and Citra. Yuzu never should have made access to Switch games. 3ds and older devices we know is hard to come by. The 3ds online store shutdown and you have to go to sites like eBay, Mercari, and other sites just to get a game that Nintendo no longer makes. Things that I can easily walk into a store and go oh hey I want Zelda for the Switch like you stated as readily available never should be emulated unless as you stated again as you own a copy. This is the problem that some people who use emulation abuse and think they're in the right when it's 100% wrong.

The problem that comes from this is that 1 copy snowballs into 10 in which 9 people don't actually own the game.

 

[flaccidsnake]

This is literally what killed Yuzu and Citra. Yuzu never should have made access to Switch games. 3ds and older devices we know is hard to come by. The 3ds online store shutdown and you have to go to sites like eBay, Mercari, and other sites just to get a game that Nintendo no longer makes. Things that I can easily walk into a store and go oh hey I want Zelda for the Switch like you stated as readily available never should be emulated unless as you stated again as you own a copy. This is the problem that some people who use emulation abuse and think they're in the right when it's 100% wrong.

so you're looking forward to Nintendo attacking Ryujinx next?

 

[Evilms]

 

[Zzero]

That's incorrect. Their emulator was never the problem, and their emulator was legal under US law. The rest is absolutely not legal, or at the very least in a very nebulous grey area - But I'm sure what I've highlighted in my comment is mandarin, or cantonese, or inuit.

Fundraising off of the fact that you make an emulator is legal. Providing tools that could be used illegally is legal. You are wrong.

 

[Zzero]

This is literally what killed Yuzu and Citra. Yuzu never should have made access to Switch games. 3ds and older devices we know is hard to come by. The 3ds online store shutdown and you have to go to sites like eBay, Mercari, and other sites just to get a game that Nintendo no longer makes. Things that I can easily walk into a store and go oh hey I want Zelda for the Switch like you stated as readily available never should be emulated unless as you stated again as you own a copy. This is the problem that some people who use emulation abuse and think they're in the right when it's 100% wrong.

The problem that comes from this is that 1 copy snowballs into 10 in which 9 people don't actually own the game.

Nintendo still actively sells 3DSes, at leadt in Japan. And secondhand ones are cheap too. Even if they didn't, they certainly were back when yuzu first started emulating it.

 

[Systemshock2023]

Add "emulated games removed from the store after a short period to artificially create scarcity"

 

[flaccidsnake]

Fundraising off of the fact that you make an emulator is legal. Providing tools that could be used illegally is legal. You are wrong.

Yes, and it would be legal to sell Yuzu at Target for real money too. The reason it doesn't happen isn't because it's illegal, it's because retailers obviously want to maintain a good relationship with Nintendo. We just saw this play out recently when Dolphin was not approved on Steam due to a agreement between Valve and Nintendo. Since I've been accused of being a Gabe Newell bootlicker, I'll say that decision sucks and is bad.

This article goes into some depth explaining the legal protection offered to emulators:

The history of bleem!

As retro game prices continue to rise and old games become lost to time, emulation is an increasingly popular option fo…

www.eurogamer.net