Hypothetical SteamOS console vs PS5

Nhomnhom

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How competitive do you think a SteamOS console would be with what we have already seen from the Steam Deck?

* Let's assume it would have comparable hardware to the PS5 but cost an extra $100.

- Steam library (that as of now include PlayStation published games)
- Free online, free save storage, etc
- SteamOS
- Possibility to use other stores
- Compatibility with many peripherals (including VR headsets)
- Easy access to emulators
- Options to have access to your library of games via cloud (GeForce Now) or negatively on the go (Deck, ROG Ally)

I play my PC games on Linux and the rate of improvement of the experience is very impressive and most of the current hurdles and unpolished edges will have been sorted out soon. A bigger installed base would only increase the incentive for devs and manufactures to ensure their products works on SteamOS/Linux.

To me on the mid to long term it is pretty obvious that these type of devices will be the biggest threat to traditional consoles (specifically the PS since Xbox doesn't look like it will be around much longer). This could be very positive for console players as it would put pressure for Sony to move on from things like paid online, paywalls and poor BC/future proofing.
 

Jim Ryan

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Judging by the Steam box attempt, probably not very.

Valve just don't have the capacity in electronics and the individual computer manufacturers just don't have the motivation.

It would be really difficult for them to even be competitive from a cost pov.
 
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Nhomnhom

Nhomnhom

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Judging by the Steam box attempt, probably not very.

Valve just don't have the capacity in electronics and the individual computer manufacturers just don't have the motivation.

It would be really difficult for them to even be competitive from a cost pov.
Steam Machines attempt has to be put into a context (it happened 10 years ago). That was before Proton was a thing and gaming on Linux was very rudimentary at the time. Things have completely changed since then.

Proton is 5 yo and in my own experience already runs many games better than Windows (Baldur's Gate 3, Elden Ring, RDR2 all were better experiences on Linux than on Windows for me). In the case of BG3 the difference was absurd.

Valve just don't have the capacity in electronics and the individual computer manufacturers just don't have the motivation.
Steam Deck shows otherwise. Valve is clearly moving slow on purpose to refine the experience and avoid a Steam Machine situation where the software just wasn't there. That is why they haven't even made SteamOS available even tho it would be rather easy for them to do so.

I predict they probably will have some sort of VR product on the way to refine that aspect on SteamOS since right now it is not polished at all.
 
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ksdixon

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We have to criticise Sony loud and proud because we already see them following MS into streaming and subscriptions. We don't want Sony copying further, or being lazy because they have no real competition.

Sony had a prototype GP/"play on any screen" approach in, what, 2011? PSNow was on more devices including PC, PS3/PS4/PSP/VITA/PS phone apps all talked to each other on party chat or playing together, not to mention early Shareplay/RemotePlay. Why downsize it all? and let MS catch up?

Why redo the PStore and drag feet on making previously available on PSNow streaming or previously bought on PS3 PStore BC games available on Classics Catalouge right now etc. Get BC sorted, tear down Classics/Game Catalouges and combine to 2 PS+ Tiers. Then you have a one stop digital shop for all gen's of PS and you have a portable access point in Portal for playing them with all the needed buttons that home console games expect to have. But this scenario should have been sorted in the Vita planning stages. Those buttons were needed.

Sony have lost about 10 years fucking around. Now Steam Deck and friends have the portable aspect on tap, as MS it seemed looked to starve them out of software. Coding for PC/XB/PS between PC initiative and MLB The Show, and no one's properly pushing PS5 to the metal. They've got a dodgy time ahead when wanting people to buy a PS6 or PSVR3, in my opinion.

This is why Portal as a remote play only gambit is dangerous. Not to mention it's shape negating the idea that even if you could stream games on it, that you would on a bus for fear of redicule/theft. That should have been a custom cut-down PS4/PS5 OS (like PS+ streaming "Fake XMB"), VITA + all buttons form factor, with local storage game downloadability so it's not a brick without WiFi/data to face-down Steam Deck and friends

That portable aspect for normal AAA games is going to be hard to shift. That cheaper sales price on Steam is going to be hard to shift. And Sony are out here not only giving their games to Valve, but not readying a real portable.

How they don't see it is completely and utterly beyond me. SONY basically did it themselves with SEGA CD development before working on PS-SNES and finally PS as a direct competitor. I'm so glad Ryan has left, but even in Layden/Tretton's time they were making easy fuckups.
 
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flaccidsnake

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I hope we can get there. It mostly comes down to Valve fixing the last 10% of issues, around Nvidia drivers and anticheat. If the user experience is there, and game compatibility is resolved, it doesn't have to be PS4-level success to deliver. If it only works for you, you're still getting generally the best version of every game, often at deep discount, with no subscription requirements.

I wouldn't expect the adoption curve to look like a Playstation launch. It'll be gradual, but also more durable.
 
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Nhomnhom

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Looking at what is happening on the smartphone front, the likes of MS and Epic would welcome/support devices like this so they could side-load their stores and not share any revenue. Valve wouldn't have reason to care since Steam will hold it's own against any stores for a long time.

Valve would also have no reason to not allow SteamOS to be supported by other manufactures once it's polished.

I hope we can get there. It mostly comes down to Valve fixing the last 10% of issues, around Nvidia drivers and anticheat. If the user experience is there, and game compatibility is resolved, it doesn't have to be PS4-level success to deliver. If it only works for you, you're still getting generally the best version of every game, often at deep discount, with no subscription requirements.

I wouldn't expect the adoption curve to look like a Playstation launch. It'll be gradual, but also more durable.
I also expect them to move slowly but it will keep adding momentum. Valve is one of the few companies out there capable of planing in the long term (as in thinking 10+ years ahead).

Stuff like anti-cheat and NVidia compatibility are stuff that still need to be overcome but a lot of this issues would sort themselves out with a big enough install base as well anyway.
 

anonpuffs

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It would do better than the steam box but probably not very well. I'm talking on the order of like 10 mil units.
 
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I was mentioning to someone on GAF in a response, that it would be much more smarter (and likely) that Sony "open up" PlayStation down the line in some future generation to offer more PC-like functionality. More modular upgrades, getting more productivity products on it (akin to how we saw on microcomputers like the Amiga) for things like video production, streaming, business, programming etc.

It is much more in Sony's interests to open up/expand PlayStation with PC-like software and support if need be (including allowing companies like Adobe, Corel, Oracle and even Microsoft publish their various productivity software on it after porting to the platform, allowing cross-save functionality obviously), than make a PlayStation storefront/launcher on PC. Because the latter means essentially making it for Windows, and being the "away team" going to Valve's playground, where they have incredibly strong home court advantage.

So strong, in fact, to the point where even though I think it's in Microsoft's best interests to shift Xbox to a PC gaming platform (like, as soon as possible), that's more in effort to lock PC and Xbox gamers into Windows and secure the backend with the development community. Valve would still command dominant presence as the storefront/launcher of choice unless Microsoft can make Windows Store a genuine competitor.

It's actually funny in a way, because effectively the best paths forward for both Xbox and PlayStation may be to become more PC-like, but in VERY different ways and timescales. Xbox consoles are basically dying in the market now, and if numbers don't substantially improve for 2024, I think it's a wrap. Keeping Xbox gaming hardware around would mean needing to completely change the business model to something aggressively more PC-like, and the best path for that would be to just have the systems run full-on Windows while still offering an Xbox-like UI option (that also disables unnecessary Windows utilities & background processes) for those who want that UI and not a Windows one (both should be options at boot and an option to to switch from one to the other, tho that probably would require a restart).

I've already mentioned many times all the benefits they'd get doing this for their 10th generation of gaming hardware. They can price the systems higher with profit margins off the hardware itself. They would, compared to other PC NUCs, have a much more capable gaming device at comparable prices (most of the good NUCs I've seen tend to go for like $800 - $1K or something like that). It can run all typical Windows applications in Windows mode. They can optimize the hardware and software stack the way they do with their Surface devices. They wouldn't need to manufacture as many units as usual, saving on production costs. They can still make various peripherals. They no longer have to constantly be compared to Sony and Nintendo. They can offer regular refreshes every couple of years while potentially saving on R&D costs (more PC-like = less bespoke hardware needed, tho MS can still bring their console R&D advantages to these new line of devices). They can go full 3P with multiplat support without needing to put on a face anymore. They can (likely) finally get Game Pass on Sony & Nintendo systems. Just so many obvious benefits in shifting the Xbox business model away from console to PC, but bringing over as much of the console experience as possible in doing so.

In fact, the only ones who lose out, are the Xbox fanatics who are still stuck in a console warring mentality. But who honestly cares about them?

For Sony, I don't think there's any need to really start opening up PlayStation as much of a PC until near the latter end of the next generation. I don't expect PS6 to be modular in any way like a PC is, tho of course they'll still let you upgrade storage and, hopefully, attach a disc drive for physical media. But they don't need to, either. PlayStation's basically been carrying the industry in terms of sales and revenue at least the past year if not longer, as Switch has finally been winding down and Xbox is cratering. For Sony, PlayStation IS their PC, and there's little reason to go outside of that ecosystem to Windows & Steam outside of some GaaS titles and maybe remastered collections of catalog/legacy titles (IMHO). They should sooner consider a PS7, for example, with modular upgradable components in RAM and GPU, before leaning onto PC for that. But this type of upgradability would be one where Sony controls the production, so in effect it'd be them manufacturing the RAM and GPU upgrades. I think that's probably the only way they could enable choice while still retaining security and critical performance thresholds. But for other things like the SSD, what they allow now for PS5 would suffice.

Maybe before the PS7, like during the ending years of PS6, Sony consider getting more productivity application support for PlayStation. Maybe start enticing companies like Adobe or even Microsoft to port products like Photoshop and Word to PlayStation. Get companies like Google to offer Chrome as a web browsing option, stuff like that. And they continue that further with PlayStation 7 (or whatever they call it by then); the key difference between Sony and Microsoft here is that Sony, thanks to PlayStation, don't really "need" the standard PC market to offer those types of features to customers. They sell more PlayStation in any given 5-7 year period than Microsoft, Dell, Asus, Acer and Lenovo sell in similarly priced or performing OEM PCs and laptops to consumers, combined. Maybe that would change if Microsoft really do take Xbox into a PC NUC/laptop-focused gaming product soon, but even so the selling power of the brand is undeniable.

Sony are better off trying to retain that, versus needlessly relenting control to outside parties on outside ecosystems. Because that then makes them more and more of a dependent, and lessens their autonomy. It starts to constrain them in certain flexibility of options, and not in necessarily good ways. Versus a company like Microsoft, who have many vested interests in PC, so moving their focus to that area, and using Xbox to catapult that focus & fully tie things together, just makes too much sense.
 

ethomaz

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I was mentioning to someone on GAF in a response, that it would be much more smarter (and likely) that Sony "open up" PlayStation down the line in some future generation to offer more PC-like functionality. More modular upgrades, getting more productivity products on it (akin to how we saw on microcomputers like the Amiga) for things like video production, streaming, business, programming etc.

It is much more in Sony's interests to open up/expand PlayStation with PC-like software and support if need be (including allowing companies like Adobe, Corel, Oracle and even Microsoft publish their various productivity software on it after porting to the platform, allowing cross-save functionality obviously), than make a PlayStation storefront/launcher on PC. Because the latter means essentially making it for Windows, and being the "away team" going to Valve's playground, where they have incredibly strong home court advantage.

So strong, in fact, to the point where even though I think it's in Microsoft's best interests to shift Xbox to a PC gaming platform (like, as soon as possible), that's more in effort to lock PC and Xbox gamers into Windows and secure the backend with the development community. Valve would still command dominant presence as the storefront/launcher of choice unless Microsoft can make Windows Store a genuine competitor.

It's actually funny in a way, because effectively the best paths forward for both Xbox and PlayStation may be to become more PC-like, but in VERY different ways and timescales. Xbox consoles are basically dying in the market now, and if numbers don't substantially improve for 2024, I think it's a wrap. Keeping Xbox gaming hardware around would mean needing to completely change the business model to something aggressively more PC-like, and the best path for that would be to just have the systems run full-on Windows while still offering an Xbox-like UI option (that also disables unnecessary Windows utilities & background processes) for those who want that UI and not a Windows one (both should be options at boot and an option to to switch from one to the other, tho that probably would require a restart).

I've already mentioned many times all the benefits they'd get doing this for their 10th generation of gaming hardware. They can price the systems higher with profit margins off the hardware itself. They would, compared to other PC NUCs, have a much more capable gaming device at comparable prices (most of the good NUCs I've seen tend to go for like $800 - $1K or something like that). It can run all typical Windows applications in Windows mode. They can optimize the hardware and software stack the way they do with their Surface devices. They wouldn't need to manufacture as many units as usual, saving on production costs. They can still make various peripherals. They no longer have to constantly be compared to Sony and Nintendo. They can offer regular refreshes every couple of years while potentially saving on R&D costs (more PC-like = less bespoke hardware needed, tho MS can still bring their console R&D advantages to these new line of devices). They can go full 3P with multiplat support without needing to put on a face anymore. They can (likely) finally get Game Pass on Sony & Nintendo systems. Just so many obvious benefits in shifting the Xbox business model away from console to PC, but bringing over as much of the console experience as possible in doing so.

In fact, the only ones who lose out, are the Xbox fanatics who are still stuck in a console warring mentality. But who honestly cares about them?

For Sony, I don't think there's any need to really start opening up PlayStation as much of a PC until near the latter end of the next generation. I don't expect PS6 to be modular in any way like a PC is, tho of course they'll still let you upgrade storage and, hopefully, attach a disc drive for physical media. But they don't need to, either. PlayStation's basically been carrying the industry in terms of sales and revenue at least the past year if not longer, as Switch has finally been winding down and Xbox is cratering. For Sony, PlayStation IS their PC, and there's little reason to go outside of that ecosystem to Windows & Steam outside of some GaaS titles and maybe remastered collections of catalog/legacy titles (IMHO). They should sooner consider a PS7, for example, with modular upgradable components in RAM and GPU, before leaning onto PC for that. But this type of upgradability would be one where Sony controls the production, so in effect it'd be them manufacturing the RAM and GPU upgrades. I think that's probably the only way they could enable choice while still retaining security and critical performance thresholds. But for other things like the SSD, what they allow now for PS5 would suffice.

Maybe before the PS7, like during the ending years of PS6, Sony consider getting more productivity application support for PlayStation. Maybe start enticing companies like Adobe or even Microsoft to port products like Photoshop and Word to PlayStation. Get companies like Google to offer Chrome as a web browsing option, stuff like that. And they continue that further with PlayStation 7 (or whatever they call it by then); the key difference between Sony and Microsoft here is that Sony, thanks to PlayStation, don't really "need" the standard PC market to offer those types of features to customers. They sell more PlayStation in any given 5-7 year period than Microsoft, Dell, Asus, Acer and Lenovo sell in similarly priced or performing OEM PCs and laptops to consumers, combined. Maybe that would change if Microsoft really do take Xbox into a PC NUC/laptop-focused gaming product soon, but even so the selling power of the brand is undeniable.

Sony are better off trying to retain that, versus needlessly relenting control to outside parties on outside ecosystems. Because that then makes them more and more of a dependent, and lessens their autonomy. It starts to constrain them in certain flexibility of options, and not in necessarily good ways. Versus a company like Microsoft, who have many vested interests in PC, so moving their focus to that area, and using Xbox to catapult that focus & fully tie things together, just makes too much sense.
Sony strategy (and rightfully) is going the opposite.
If you want a PC you have a PC.
If you the Apple of videogames then you have PlayStation.

And to be fair the next move is to go away from x86… it was cheap and had it needs in the last two generation but now it is very dated for a console hardware to the point that is holding what can be done.

Sony needs to go ARM + GPU next time.
Same/better performance, less power consumption, smaller chip, better form factor, etc.
 
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Nhomnhom

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they've progressively gone in the opposite direction on this, even as their hardware design gets more PC like. PS2 and especially PS3 were wide open to tinkering with linux. PS5 took away the browser.
Looking at what is happening with in smarphone market, PlayStation would have a lot more to gain by going the Apple direction than the Android one.

Valve is on a completely different position where they are already far ahead as far as storefront features and being able to directly compete with anyone.

Valve despite how slow they move at least have consistently moved in the same direction for years and years while Sony failed to solve some core long issues for their business like refunds, free online, store UI, user feedback, native portable device, backwards compatibility, etc.

Sony has a massive buffer due to how big PS is now but if they ever find themselves in direct competition against PC it not going to be favorable to them. They still have a few years to put their home in order or we might actually see PlayStation go the way of Xbox not in the so distant future.
 
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anonpuffs

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Sony strategy (and rightfully) is going the opposite.
If you want a PC you have a PC.
If you the Apple of videogames then you have PlayStation.

And to be fair the next move is to go away from x86… it was cheap and had it needs in the last two generation but now it is very dated for a console hardware to the point that is holding what can be done.

Sony needs to go ARM + GPU next time.
Same/better performance, less power consumption, smaller chip, better form factor, etc.
I don't see the evidence that ARM has same/better performance in the high end regime. Plus you need to pay license fees to ARM to even develop the shits. Then there's all sorts of compatibility issues. I don't see ARM consoles happening for a long time.
 

ethomaz

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I don't see the evidence that ARM has same/better performance in the high end regime. Plus you need to pay license fees to ARM to even develop the shits. Then there's all sorts of compatibility issues. I don't see ARM consoles happening for a long time.
For example MySQL on ARM vs x86.
  • 24 vCPU/48 GB Intel(R) Xeon(R) Gold 6266C CPU @ 3.00GHz for running MySQL on x86.
  • 24 vCPU/48 GB ARM @ 2.60GHz for running MySQL on ARM
And to be fair that is a 4 years old real life benchmark... things got even better for ARM nowdays.
x86 lose a lot of performance due the 30 years old instructions compatibilities.

ARM-vs-x86-ps.png


Another 4 years old this time syntetic benchmark... Snapdragon vs Intel.

pub_key_all_core-2.png


AMR for some years already is take the place in Servers because it is way cheaper (in both hardware and maintenance) with the similar results.
nVidia tried to buy ARM for a reason.

And you know the key advantage of ARM? You can put dozen of these in a Servers that will easily outperform the the highest CPU model from AMD or Intel still having lower power consumption.

ARM will always win due having a way higher celling for multi cores.
Max cores in x86 is like 48 or 56 today... ARM can go over 100 cores with less power draw.
 
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flaccidsnake

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Looking at what is happening with in smarphone market, PlayStation would have a lot more to gain by going the Apple direction than the Android one.

Valve is on a completely different position where they are already far ahead as far as storefront features and being able to directly compete with anyone.

Valve despite how slow they move at least have consistently moved in the same direction for years and years while Sony failed to solve some core long term feature for their business like refunds, free online, store UI, user feedback, native portable device, backwards compatibility, etc.

Sony has a massive buffer due to how big PS is now but if they ever find themselves in direct competition against PC they are screwed. Xbox is not a good reference for competition and the biggest Sony weakness right now comes from copying Xbox (paid online).
I think PS is free to go in either direction and they basically can't lose. The best thing about Playstation is they consider the whole gaming experience top to bottom, and from that we get innovations like the dualsense haptics, media sharing, etc. They could deliver that stuff either in a locked down Apple way or an open way, and it would work as long as the user experience is seamless.

Valve isn't a huge electronics conglomerate, but they have some of the best software engineers in the world paired up with a management that is uniquely able to plan long term. Getting into Steam is more of a hassle than buying a Playstation, but it's always getting better. I would love to see SteamOS mature to the point where you can buy an Alienware or Razer console from Best Buy, it's just as seamless as a Playstation but far more consumer-friendly.
 
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Nhomnhom

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I think PS is free to go in either direction and they basically can't lose. The best thing about Playstation is they consider the whole gaming experience top to bottom, and from that we get innovations like the dualsense haptics, media sharing, etc. They could deliver that stuff either in a locked down Apple way or an open way, and it would work as long as the user experience is seamless.

Valve isn't a huge electronics conglomerate, but they have some of the best software engineers in the world paired up with a management that is uniquely able to plan long term. Getting into Steam is more of a hassle than buying a Playstation, but it's always getting better. I would love to see SteamOS mature to the point where you can buy an Alienware or Razer console from Best Buy, it's just as seamless as a Playstation but far more consumer-friendly.
Steam OS is already at that point, its just a strategic decision by Valve to not make that move now (first impressions matter and since SteamOS/Linux gaming is improving so fast they gain more by waiting).

To me Steam completely outclasses the PS Store. Free online, free saves, better UI, easy refunds, valuable player feedback.

Valve excels precisely at what Sony has historically struggled, while PlayStation is good at precisely what Valve doesn't want to do (Valve could've easily become a publisher but chose not to).

PlayStation should try to differentiate itself as much as possible and where not possible at least match what PC is offering and close the gap.
 
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anonpuffs

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For example MySQL on ARM vs x86.
  • 24 vCPU/48 GB Intel(R) Xeon(R) Gold 6266C CPU @ 3.00GHz for running MySQL on x86.
  • 24 vCPU/48 GB ARM @ 2.60GHz for running MySQL on ARM
And to be fair that is a 4 years old real life benchmark... things got even better for ARM nowdays.
x86 lose a lot of performance due the 30 years old instructions compatibilities.

ARM-vs-x86-ps.png


Another 4 years old this time syntetic benchmark... Snapdragon vs Intel.

pub_key_all_core-2.png


AMR for some years already is take the place in Servers because it is way cheaper (in both hardware and maintenance) with the similar results.
nVidia tried to buy ARM for a reason.

And you know the key advantage of ARM? You can put dozen of these in a Servers that will easily outperform the the highest CPU model from AMD or Intel still having lower power consumption.

ARM will always win due having a way higher celling for multi cores.
Max cores in x86 is like 48 or 56 today... ARM can go over 100 cores with less power draw.
Servers operate at far lower frequencies than consoles and desktop PCs, there is no indication that ARM performance scales with power usage outside of servers which scale because they are using more separate cpus rather than more powerful singular cpus (and games scale mostly off of single threaded cpu performance). Also server CPU workloads are far different than gaming workloads. It's completely apples and oranges.
 

Satoru

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Servers operate at far lower frequencies than consoles and desktop PCs, there is no indication that ARM performance scales with power usage outside of servers which scale because they are using more separate cpus rather than more powerful singular cpus (and games scale mostly off of single threaded cpu performance). Also server CPU workloads are far different than gaming workloads. It's completely apples and oranges.

This actually covers a bit.