Hypothetical SteamOS console vs PS5

ethomaz

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Servers operate at far lower frequencies than consoles and desktop PCs, there is no indication that ARM performance scales with power usage outside of servers which scale because they are using more separate cpus rather than more powerful singular cpus (and games scale mostly off of single threaded cpu performance). Also server CPU workloads are far different than gaming workloads. It's completely apples and oranges.
M1/M2 is here to show performance scale outside servers 🤷‍♂️
If Sony doesn't want the PlayStation to be hold by x86 with huge design that doesn't offer enough performance then ARM is the only option to go.

Do you think console should be stuck at these APUs with 10-12TFs if they didn't break the 200W TDP barrier? Or making these huge design to try to cooler these big APUs?
 
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ksdixon

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I was mentioning to someone on GAF in a response, that it would be much more smarter (and likely) that Sony "open up" PlayStation down the line in some future generation to offer more PC-like functionality. More modular upgrades, getting more productivity products on it (akin to how we saw on microcomputers like the Amiga) for things like video production, streaming, business, programming etc.

It is much more in Sony's interests to open up/expand PlayStation with PC-like software and support if need be (including allowing companies like Adobe, Corel, Oracle and even Microsoft publish their various productivity software on it after porting to the platform, allowing cross-save functionality obviously), than make a PlayStation storefront/launcher on PC. Because the latter means essentially making it for Windows, and being the "away team" going to Valve's playground, where they have incredibly strong home court advantage.

So strong, in fact, to the point where even though I think it's in Microsoft's best interests to shift Xbox to a PC gaming platform (like, as soon as possible), that's more in effort to lock PC and Xbox gamers into Windows and secure the backend with the development community. Valve would still command dominant presence as the storefront/launcher of choice unless Microsoft can make Windows Store a genuine competitor.

It's actually funny in a way, because effectively the best paths forward for both Xbox and PlayStation may be to become more PC-like, but in VERY different ways and timescales. Xbox consoles are basically dying in the market now, and if numbers don't substantially improve for 2024, I think it's a wrap. Keeping Xbox gaming hardware around would mean needing to completely change the business model to something aggressively more PC-like, and the best path for that would be to just have the systems run full-on Windows while still offering an Xbox-like UI option (that also disables unnecessary Windows utilities & background processes) for those who want that UI and not a Windows one (both should be options at boot and an option to to switch from one to the other, tho that probably would require a restart).

I've already mentioned many times all the benefits they'd get doing this for their 10th generation of gaming hardware. They can price the systems higher with profit margins off the hardware itself. They would, compared to other PC NUCs, have a much more capable gaming device at comparable prices (most of the good NUCs I've seen tend to go for like $800 - $1K or something like that). It can run all typical Windows applications in Windows mode. They can optimize the hardware and software stack the way they do with their Surface devices. They wouldn't need to manufacture as many units as usual, saving on production costs. They can still make various peripherals. They no longer have to constantly be compared to Sony and Nintendo. They can offer regular refreshes every couple of years while potentially saving on R&D costs (more PC-like = less bespoke hardware needed, tho MS can still bring their console R&D advantages to these new line of devices). They can go full 3P with multiplat support without needing to put on a face anymore. They can (likely) finally get Game Pass on Sony & Nintendo systems. Just so many obvious benefits in shifting the Xbox business model away from console to PC, but bringing over as much of the console experience as possible in doing so.

In fact, the only ones who lose out, are the Xbox fanatics who are still stuck in a console warring mentality. But who honestly cares about them?

For Sony, I don't think there's any need to really start opening up PlayStation as much of a PC until near the latter end of the next generation. I don't expect PS6 to be modular in any way like a PC is, tho of course they'll still let you upgrade storage and, hopefully, attach a disc drive for physical media. But they don't need to, either. PlayStation's basically been carrying the industry in terms of sales and revenue at least the past year if not longer, as Switch has finally been winding down and Xbox is cratering. For Sony, PlayStation IS their PC, and there's little reason to go outside of that ecosystem to Windows & Steam outside of some GaaS titles and maybe remastered collections of catalog/legacy titles (IMHO). They should sooner consider a PS7, for example, with modular upgradable components in RAM and GPU, before leaning onto PC for that. But this type of upgradability would be one where Sony controls the production, so in effect it'd be them manufacturing the RAM and GPU upgrades. I think that's probably the only way they could enable choice while still retaining security and critical performance thresholds. But for other things like the SSD, what they allow now for PS5 would suffice.

Maybe before the PS7, like during the ending years of PS6, Sony consider getting more productivity application support for PlayStation. Maybe start enticing companies like Adobe or even Microsoft to port products like Photoshop and Word to PlayStation. Get companies like Google to offer Chrome as a web browsing option, stuff like that. And they continue that further with PlayStation 7 (or whatever they call it by then); the key difference between Sony and Microsoft here is that Sony, thanks to PlayStation, don't really "need" the standard PC market to offer those types of features to customers. They sell more PlayStation in any given 5-7 year period than Microsoft, Dell, Asus, Acer and Lenovo sell in similarly priced or performing OEM PCs and laptops to consumers, combined. Maybe that would change if Microsoft really do take Xbox into a PC NUC/laptop-focused gaming product soon, but even so the selling power of the brand is undeniable.

Sony are better off trying to retain that, versus needlessly relenting control to outside parties on outside ecosystems. Because that then makes them more and more of a dependent, and lessens their autonomy. It starts to constrain them in certain flexibility of options, and not in necessarily good ways. Versus a company like Microsoft, who have many vested interests in PC, so moving their focus to that area, and using Xbox to catapult that focus & fully tie things together, just makes too much sense.
Quick drive by post, still reading through but brain isn't working... But they still do Sony Vegas video editing software don't they, and still make updates for Sharefactory on the console side? Sony should totally buff out their social and media editing/creative content stuff on console.
 

Alabtrosmyster

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Sony strategy (and rightfully) is going the opposite.
If you want a PC you have a PC.
If you the Apple of videogames then you have PlayStation.

And to be fair the next move is to go away from x86… it was cheap and had it needs in the last two generation but now it is very dated for a console hardware to the point that is holding what can be done.

Sony needs to go ARM + GPU next time.
Same/better performance, less power consumption, smaller chip, better form factor, etc.
Yup about ARM, they went the x86 route back in 2013 because ARM was not a viable platform for the type of performance they needed (even with the tablet CPU).

Now, I just hope they integrate an emulation layer so we can keep our games all the way back to the PS4 (maybe PS3....).
 
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ethomaz

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This actually covers a bit.

This article lead to another real world comparision.


It was made using the AWS (Amazon Web Services) because they offer both options... x86 and ARM.
The conclusion is that you can have more performance with a 40% reduction in costs with AWS ARM.
 

ethomaz

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Yup about ARM, they went the x86 route back in 2013 because ARM was not a viable platform for the type of performance they needed (even with the tablet CPU).

Now, I just hope they integrate an emulation layer so we can keep our games all the way back to the PS4 (maybe PS3....).
I can only imagine the size of PS6 if Sony still stuck with x86 :D
I love my PS5 and I think the design (without the disc bay) is champ but it is way bigger than what we expect from a console device.
 

Systemshock2023

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It will bomb because they will sell it in like 10 countries. Valve doesn't have the supply chain muscle Sony has.

They should focus on the steam deck.
 

flaccidsnake

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It will bomb because they will sell it in like 10 countries. Valve doesn't have the supply chain muscle Sony has.

They should focus on the steam deck.
If "it" is really popping, SteamOS is a software platform distributed by lots of different hardware vendors. Maybe even including Sony/Vaio/Playstation.
 
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Quick drive by post, still reading through but brain isn't working... But they still do Sony Vegas video editing software don't they, and still make updates for Sharefactory on the console side? Sony should totally buff out their social and media editing/creative content stuff on console.

Yep you're right, they still have Vegas around. That's the sort of productivity integration they could definitely look into offering PlayStation in the future though, again, it'd have to be carefully done and very gradual. The goal should be to make it more like a microcomputer standard (Amiga, Commodore, X68000 etc.), not a PC-compatible standard.

While still bringing many of the best features/benefits of PC and making it easy for Windows app writers to port to whatever PS runs in the future. But these are all things well more than a decade from ever happening IMO.
 
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Nhomnhom

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It will bomb because they will sell it in like 10 countries. Valve doesn't have the supply chain muscle Sony has.

They should focus on the steam deck.
People need to realize Valve interest in the Steam Deck now is to have a platform to work on SteamOS, it's not their end goal.

Once the software is mature enough for a broader audience they'll scale, most likely by making SteamOS available to other hardware manufacturers.

Valve didn't spend over 10+ years investing on Linux for no reason, they want to untie their success from Windows.
 
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I think commentariat on this topic is healthy and a lot of posts in this thread were on the money in many respects, bringing some fresh perspective on key central themes, but obviously as usual eventually the posts get too cute, with an abundance of absolutes instead of keeping it logically simple - it's a business/product after all.

I think it's pretty clear what Valve is doing and how it's positioning itself in the market. I think if the current trajectory plays out for Microsoft, Valve will be Sony's main direct competition in the future, and it will bring to market a console-like device, curated and managed by them - and it will be a console that will bridge with the Steam PC ecosystem - and succeed where MS failed - the Steamdeck is the trial balloon - and a successful one on a conceptual basis. But again a lot hinges on Microsoft, and I do not believe for a second Microsoft will simply play out what's ahead of them without trying to turn the table many times over. Valve needs market space to operate beyond PC and in the console space and Microsoft currently occupies that working space, and does not want to relinquish it, even if we can see diminishing strength with each passing year. As long as Microsoft occupies the third string role in consoles, Valve will play at the seams. Or, until Microsoft gets tired of playing games and does what it should have always done - buy Valve outright.

Needless to say, there is a lot of brain rot at SIE for not properly preparing for this eventuality - and you can tell by the initiatives and policies that Sony takes, including, and mostly, in the absence of initiatives. There is the thinking that you should not get ahead of yourself when Microsoft is still in, "all-in" as they say. You don't get ahead of yourself cause every initiative cost money, and there is the profitability pressure valve always butting against this but you know.... that's the job, if it were easy, everyone would do it. Sometimes you have to be forward thinking to future competitive threats, instead of being reactive at a post-fact reality. PlayStation rivals are literally choreographing their plays live, you can not ask for a better, more clear picture - the ball is on Sony's court, and it's their game to lose. Needless to say, thanks Jim for his services but he's an old fossil whose retirement was overdue, as are many others currently at SIE.
 

avenovah

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I'm thinking of switching from a gaming laptop to Steam Deck 2 in the future, although I'm happy with the Lenovo Legion.
 
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I think commentariat on this topic is healthy and a lot of posts in this thread were on the money in many respects, bringing some fresh perspective on key central themes, but obviously as usual eventually the posts get too cute, with an abundance of absolutes instead of keeping it logically simple - it's a business/product after all.

I think it's pretty clear what Valve is doing and how it's positioning itself in the market. I think if the current trajectory plays out for Microsoft, Valve will be Sony's main direct competition in the future, and it will bring to market a console-like device, curated and managed by them - and it will be a console that will bridge with the Steam PC ecosystem - and succeed where MS failed - the Steamdeck is the trial balloon - and a successful one. But again a lot hinges on Microsoft, and I do not believe for a second Microsoft will simply play out what's ahead of them without trying to turn the table many times over. Valve needs market space to operate beyond PC and in the console space and Microsoft currently occupies that working space, and does not want to relinquish it, even if we can see diminishing strength with each passing year. As long as Microsoft occupies the third string role in consoles, Valve will play at the seams. Or, until Microsoft gets tired of playing games and does what it should have always done - buy Valve outright.

Needless to say, there is a lot of brain rot at SIE for not properly preparing for this eventuality - and you can tell by the initiatives and policies that Sony takes, including, and mostly, in the absence of initiatives. There is the case that you should not get ahead of yourself when Microsoft is still in, "all-in" as they say. You don't get ahead of yourself cause every initiative cost money, and there is the profitability pressure valve always butting against this but you know.... that's the job, if it were easy, everyone would do it. Sometimes you have to be forward thinking to future competitive threats, instead of being reactive at a post-fact reality. PlayStation rivals are literally choreographing their plays live - the ball is on Sony's court, and it's their game to lose.
To me it blow my mind that Valve has the resources to make gaming on Linux viable while Sony fails to make their own library of games available on the latest PlayStation.

Even third party games like RDR2 not running at 60fps with higher resolution is sort of absurd if you think about it.

Ever since the PS3 days I get this impression that Sony tries to save money and run a skeleton crew on key places like, system software, costumer support, communication/PR, etc. They put out so many halfharted stuff that they quickly abandon. For a long time it has being pretty much the hardware design team and games devs doing all the heavy lifting for the brand.

I'm thinking of switching from a gaming laptop to Steam Deck 2 in the future, although I'm happy with the Lenovo Legion.
In the next few months I think I'll likely change from my gaming PC to the combo of a Steam Deck + company laptop. What is holding me back is that the OLED one is impossible to find in Brazil with a reasonable price. The Steam Deck should also be able to serve the role of the PS Portal if I'm not mistaken.

I work at home but there is something I always enjoyed about being able to play a portable console in bed and not being limited to an specific room where your hardware is at.
 
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Alabtrosmyster

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In the next few months I think I'll likely change from my gaming PC to the combo of a Steam Deck + company laptop. What is holding me back is that the OLED one is impossible to find in Brazil with a reasonable price. The Steam Deck should also be able to serve the role of the PS Portal if I'm not mistaken.
I have a gaming desktop PC connected on the TV, I keep wondering if I should move it to some Linux distro as a trial for a gaming setup... but I lack time and I don't care that much about which OS and API layer my games use.

I'd do it on principle and for geek creds.
I work at home but there is something I always enjoyed about being able to play a portable console in bed and not being limited to an specific room where your hardware is at.
I'm the polar opposite of this, no portable gaming device ever held my interest for a significant amount of time and, more importantly, I love my current gaming setup.
 
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Nhomnhom

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I have a gaming desktop PC connected on the TV, I keep wondering if I should move it to some Linux distro as a trial for a gaming setup... but I lack time and I don't care that much about which OS and API layer my games use.

I'd do it on principle and for geek creds.

I'm the polar opposite of this, no portable gaming device ever held my interest for a significant amount of time and, more importantly, I love my current gaming setup.
I just find the tech cool, the fact that I despise MS probably helps too.

I'm just used to Linux at this point and I can go a long time without the need to even boot windows.

The main trick for gaming on Linux to work is to stick to Steam, in that case odds are you won't need too much tinkering. Avoiding brand new games is also usually a good idea and also helps you save some money and get improved versions of those games.
 
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Alabtrosmyster

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I just find the tech cool, the fact that I despise MS probably helps too.

I'm just used to Linux at this point and I can go a long time without the need to even boot windows.

The main trick for gaming on Linux to work is to stick to Steam, in that case odds are you won't need too much tinkering. Avoiding brand new games is also usually a good idea and also helps you save some money and get improved versions of those games.
Does it work with pirated copies?

I'm asking for a friend of mine who is sailing the high seas right now.
 
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Nhomnhom

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Does it work with pirated copies?

I'm asking for a friend of mine who is sailing the high seas right now.
Linux? Should work with pretty much anything that has an installer but the experience is a lot more polished with Steam.

What Linux handles poorly or not at all right now are games with invasive anti-cheat and VR.

Gamepass is another thing that doesn't work.
Donald Glover Reaction GIF
 

KiryuRealty

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Where it’s at.
I just find the tech cool, the fact that I despise MS probably helps too.

I'm just used to Linux at this point and I can go a long time without the need to even boot windows.

The main trick for gaming on Linux to work is to stick to Steam, in that case odds are you won't need too much tinkering. Avoiding brand new games is also usually a good idea and also helps you save some money and get improved versions of those games.
So, if you leave the Windows monopoly, you go to the Steam monopoly. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


Anyone thinking a Steambox would make any kind of dent in the market is on some high-grade shit.
 
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Nhomnhom

Nhomnhom

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So, if you leave the Windows monopoly, you go to the Steam monopoly. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


Anyone thinking a Steambox would make any kind of dent in the market is on some high-grade shit.
Steam is not a monopoly, all the other stores just suck.

There is nothing stopping Epic, EA, MS, GoG, etc from supporting Linux except that they don't care about it.

Anyone underestimating Steam isn't paying attention.
 
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Alabtrosmyster

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Gamepass is another thing that doesn't work.
Yeah, that was very high in my list of concerns 🤕.
Anyone thinking a Steambox would make any kind of dent in the market is on some high-grade shit.
It does not really matter, the Steam Deck makes a difference, even if it sells only a fraction of what the PS5\Switch sells (even compared to the xbox consoles it's not selling that much).