Richard Leadbetter (Digital Foundry): Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

[ethomaz]

Well I said 30fps will be the norm in next-Gen games on consoles in 2020 several times but now the man is finally saying the same.

About UE5

It's a tricky question to answer, but ultimately, I feel it is inevitable that the proliferation of 60fps support will slack off significantly - not least because so many titles are looking to tap into the full array of features offered by Epic's Unreal Engine 5, which sets the stage for a new 3D rendering paradigm. We've already had our first taste of the kind of fidelity UE5 offers thanks to last year's phenomenal demo - The Matrix Awakens - based on an early rendition of the engine's features. Lumen, tapping into hardware-accelerated ray tracing features, delivers an astonishingly realistic lighting solution, while Nanite offers a level of geometric detail in excess of traditional rendering.

It's quite unlike anything we've seen before, but the point is that the demo runs at an inconsistent 30fps during gameplay, while cutscenes are actually operating at a literally cinematic 24fps. Both CPU and GPU are put through the wringer here, so simply scaling down resolution to improve frame-rate will not help much.

About Gotham Knights:

To put it brutally, Gotham Knights' 30fps nature on consoles appears to be down to the authorship of the game as opposed to the raw capabilities of the hardware. It's only speculation of course, but based on what we've seen, the brute force power of the new machines is used to make a game that likely couldn't run well on PS4 and Xbox One work even at a basic level on PS5 and Xbox Series hardware. By extension, it's not the best example of why a transition to 30fps console gaming may be coming.

About Plague Tale: Requiem:

A Plague Tale: Requiem is a lot more interesting, simply because the reputation and accomplishments of Asobo Studio are exceptionally impressive. Here, we find a game that is pushing phenomenal levels of detail, beautiful materials and characters and a remarkable lighting solution. On PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X, the native resolution is 2560x1440, using temporal accumulation to upscale to a convincing-looking 4K, while Series S runs at 900p with a 1080p output target. 30 frames per second is the target, but the fidelity Asobo aims for can see PlayStation 5 in particular drop beneath the performance target.

Would, say, a 1080p performance mode be possible for this title for the premium consoles? After all, if Series S delivers 900p30, the notion that Series X - with a notional 3x improvement to GPU power - could deliver 1080p60 doesn't sound outrageous. At this point, we need to consider that developers that aren't targeting last-gen console CPUs may already be challenging the Zen 2 cores with their latest wares. Our friend at the brilliantly-named Analog Foundry presented their take on A Plague Tale optimised settings for use on an RTX 3070 paired with a Ryzen 7 3700X CPU, based on the same Zen 2 architecture as the consoles. this clipsuggests that performance can drop into the mid to high 30s, likely down to CPU limitations as the GPU is clearly under-utilised. Based on the footage, running those many thousands of rates comes at a cost.

About 40FPS being the new "performance mode":

The goalposts have shifted with Asobo Studio opting for fidelity and visual accomplishment over performance - but there is a twist via support for 40fps on 120Hz displays. Sony's first-party studios have championed the use of 40fps fidelity modes for much of its recent output, including Uncharted: The Legacy Collection, Horizon Forbidden West and The Last of Us Part 1. The trend was kickstarted by Insomniac Games where its Spider-Man titles and Ratchet and Clank: Rift in Time showcased the feature. The reason 30fps exists in the first place is that it cleanly divides into the 60Hz refresh rate of most displays - the same frame persists for two screen refreshes and looks consistent. 40fps is the logical progression for the new wave of 120Hz screens: the screen refreshes three times per game frame and it offers a much smoother look than 30fps.

This may sound weird when you're 'only' getting an extra 10 frames per second but Frame-rate isn't linear, frame-time is. A 30fps game updates every 33.3ms, a 60fps game updates every 16.7ms. Targeting 40fps puts you bang in the middle with a 25ms per-frame persistence. It may well be 'only' an extra 10fps, but it looks so much smoother because it is at the exact mid-point between a 30fps and 60fps presentation.

To illustrate why frame-time is a more useful performance metric than frame-rate, consider this: the difference between 30fps and 60fps is 30fps but so is the difference between 90fps and 120fps. However, the improvement in frame-time - which is essentially how you perceive the flow of the game - drops by 16.7ms in the leap from 30fps to 60fps. However, boosting frame-rate from 90fps to 120fps only reduces frame-time by 2.8ms. Faster is better, but as frame-rate scales, actual perceivable improvements to performance swiftly enter the realm of diminishing returns. By the same token, cutting frame-time from 33.3ms (30fps) down to 25ms (40fps) is far more of a win perceptually than the frame-rate figure suggests.

Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

Future games will be more ambitious - and they can't all run at 60fps.

www.eurogamer.net

Thanks Sullivan on ERA where I shameless copies most of text.

 

[ethomaz]

Just an opinion…. the high amount of 60fps early in this generation is a by product of extended cross-gen period due COVID-19.

Games designed for PS4 runs very easy in 60fps on PS5.
They issue will be real next-gen games designed to next-gen consoles where developers will push fidelity to max (and the feel of next-gen will finally happen this generation).

Moving from PS4 30fps to PS5 60fps add little increase in graphical fidelity.
PS4 30fps to PS5 30fps is where the jump will be next-gen.

 

[Deleted member 13]

I hope people now understand that there is a lack of bandwidth for the consoles this generation (similar to the last). The games tax the hardware significantly where even the highest end GPUs need DLSS in order to perform well. I said before that the consoles were maxed out already 2yrs in and that things won't get drastically different going forward. People who thought they would get games looking like UE5 demo running at 4k/60FPS will be sorely disappointed. Given the time frame in-between sequels, we won't be seeing significant jumps in graphics with 4k/60FPS until next generation (i.e. PS6, XSX 2).

 

[peter42O]

Current generation only games should have a 60fps option available and the games should be built with that option in mind. 4K/30 and 1440p/60 would be ideal. And of course, they can lower the shadows and whatnot from high to medium in order to gain 60fps.

I will skipping/waiting on a lot of games if they don't at least offer me a 60fps option. The consoles are more than capable. Turn off Ray Tracing since that's very resource heavy and outside of reflections, isn't worth the compromise to me whatsoever. Besides, Rift Apart has a 60fps Ray Tracing performance mode at a lower resolution and the game is still a 10/10 visually so I don't see why other development studios can't do the same. Show the game in trailers at the highest fidelity but still have the option for those like me who want 60fps.

If games end up going this way, then I hope the mid-gen consoles get released sooner rather than later.

 

[Deleted member 13]

I hate it when people do armchair developing and don't know a single thing about coding and algorithms. I was looking at DeepEnigma (aka Mod of War) on GAF arguing with other gamers on what should be and how to get it and none of those people know zelch about the graphics engine at that level. Asobo already said it's not that simple to just lower resolution and gain FPS. That's because their pipeline is working so hard at the pixel level and not using cheap rendering tricks that break down nowadays.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Besides, Rift Apart has a 60fps Ray Tracing performance mode at a lower resolution and the game is still a 10/10 visually

You have no idea what the rendering is doing in Plague that's way more expensive than what R&C is doing. Most people judge R&C based off of colored lights in the scene and the excellent level design. That doent' speak at all to the tech that went into the graphics engine. And the RT used in the game is a low resolution reflection pass. They don't use any of the more expensive techniques in RT like lighting, shadowing and AO with GI. We need to stop judging a game simply by how artsy it is. Plague is a way more complicated game visually.

If games end up going this way, then I hope the mid-gen consoles get released sooner rather than later.

Mid-gen consoles won't be enough of a change to the hardware to allow for 4k/60FPS. This is a gross assumption that's not accurate. We have to take into account how expensive these rendering techniques are and what they would need in terms of hardware enhancements in order to get there. It's not as simple as just doubling the SMUs and/or CPU. In order to keep costs at a minmum (i.e. ~$100 more), we shouldn't expect 3090-type levels of performance.

 

[peter42O]

Mid-gen consoles won't be enough of a change to the hardware to allow for 4k/60FPS. This is a gross assumption that's not accurate. We have to take into account how expensive these rendering techniques are and what they would need in terms of hardware enhancements in order to get there. It's not as simple as just doubling the SMUs and/or CPU. In order to keep costs at a minmum (i.e. ~$100 more), we shouldn't expect 3090-type levels of performance.

I'm not even looking for 4K/60. If I can get 1440p/60fps, im fine with that and even 1080p/60fps is acceptable for me. Visuals is the third most important aspect for me in games so I will take the visual hit in exchange for better performance with 60fps which in turn, gives me more stable and fluid combat and gameplay.

 

[TubzGaming]

The only thing i have wanted from this gen is a locked 60+ frames and 1440p+, 4k is nice and all but just up-scaling is fine by me.
Just the options of 4k/30, 4k Up-scaled from 1440p/60, 1080-1440/120.

There is no real need for pure 4K in your face, it has been proven with the Mixed modes on Sony first party that they can run and also look good without full 4K.

 

[Deleted member 13]

I'm not even looking for 4K/60. If I can get 1440p/60fps, im fine with that and even 1080p/60fps is acceptable for me. Visuals is the third most important aspect for me in games so I will take the visual hit in exchange for better performance with 60fps which in turn, gives me more stable and fluid combat and gameplay.

The problem is that if devs kept things locked to 60fps, you won't get anything looking better than last-gen.

 

[TubzGaming]

The problem is that if devs kept things locked to 60fps, you won't get anything looking better than last-gen.

The problem with that is that is Opinion based. What you see as "Last Gen" other's may see the same game and think its "This Gen" and vice versa.
Most people in the general public dont care or cant even tell the difference from 4K-1440-1080 - 30/60/120

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Hah! Bullshit..

If a 8 core 16 threads CPU "can't" deliver 60fps, people on PC have a problem.

Above 90% of games this gen will have a performance mode.

 

[Deleted member 13]

The problem with that is that is Opinion based. What you see as "Last Gen" other's may see the same game and think its "This Gen" and vice versa.
Most people in the general public dont care or cant even tell the difference from 4K-1440-1080 - 30/60/120

Agreed. I'm ok with last gen tech as it's very prevalent in today's games anyway. I would have no problems with games on the same fidelity as Plague Req. RT is used in such an inexpensive way that it's not really showing it's true potential. We'll have to wait until PS6 to get some good results from RT.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Hah! Bullshit..

If a 8 core 16 threads CPU "can't" deliver 60fps, people on PC have a problem.

Games aren't generally CPU bound. They are GPU bound. The lack of 60FPS is most certainly because of the GPUs in these consoles.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

Games aren't generally CPU bound. They are GPU bound. The lack of 60FPS is most certainly because of the GPUs in these consoles.

They're bound to both CPU and GPU. If one bottlenecks the other, there's a problem.
Both PS5 and XSX has great architecture to achieve 60-120fps, but not at native 4K - 1080p-1440p is not a problem for these machines.

Gotham Knights and Plague were aiming for high resolution, but they both run bad on beefy PC's, so it's more of a development issue than hardware issue.

 

[Deleted member 13]

They're bound to both CPU and GPU. If one bottlenecks the other, there's a problem.

That is true as you can quickly change the delta depending on what you introduce in the game code but generally, the CPU isn't going to be the bottleneck - especially targeting 60FPS.

Both PS5 and XSX has great architecture to achieve 60-120fps, but not at native 4K - 1080p-1440p is not a problem for these machines.

Very vague statement. They are capable of achieving 60-120FPS with older games that aren't GPU heavy. But that sentence doesn't hold up if we are talking about really complex scenes like UE5 demo using Nanite or any game using ALL RT features including those with lighting and ambient occlusion.

Gotham Knights and Plague were aiming for high resolution, but they both run bad on beefy PC's, so it's more of a development issue than hardware issue.

Plague runs great on my PC. It's not a consistent 60FPS but it's not a showstopper either. My observed variation is between 50-60FPS at 4k using DLSS with MAX settings.

 

[riesgoyfortuna]

when games like ratchet being one of the best graphical showcases out there being exclusive to ps5 and with 120 and 60 fps modes...i dunno

 

[riesgoyfortuna]

The problem is that if devs kept things locked to 60fps, you won't get anything looking better than last-gen.

ratchet just destroys your argument

 

[arvfab]

Give me upscaled 1440p/40fps with all the bells and whistles.

 

[Deleted member 13]

ratchet just destroys your argument

Ratchet is designed exactly like I said. You can't name a single graphics feature that's in R&C that's not anywhere else. I love it when you guys give me these hyperbolic statements with absolutely 0 evidence to support your sentence - making it a complete subjective argument.

 

[peter42O]

The problem is that if devs kept things locked to 60fps, you won't get anything looking better than last-gen.

After Horizon Forbidden West and the upcoming God of War Ragnarok along with Forza Horizon 5, do people really need better looking games? Majority are already a 10/10 in visuals. We're not watching movies, we're playing games and I would think most would prefer the performance over the visuals because if the gameplay is bad, it's not going to matter how great a game looks.