Richard Leadbetter (Digital Foundry): Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

[Satoru]

Plague tale also looks like a generational leap, but I don't buy the excuses that the game couldn't run at 60fps on consoles. It doesn't even perform that great on PC, which shows it was poorly optimized. It happens. Gotham knights, which doesn't look better than older Batman games, is an even bigger travesty. It doesn't even look better than Guardians of the Galaxy yet it doesn't manage to run at 60fps? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

[Oogabooga]

Yeah except this whole generation was built up as a revolution for framerate given the CPU's, and a course correction from last gen which was GPU lopsided...

Yeah, but sorry. 4k/60 fps on a 500$ console is unrealistic standard. Try again next generation. devlopers would choose to push the visuals to sell their games. Personally as long as they don't lag or go below 30 fps, then It's all good. I do think they should allow performance mode option tho.

 

[Deleted member 13]

On last gen vs current gen

One ran at 30fps 1080p, the other ran at 4k 30fps. Even if you compare the performance RT mode at 60fps with last gen at 60fps, the improvements are noticeable across the board.

The improvements are noticeable because of the tech used. You can't have it both ways. You are trying to dumb down tech when I talk about it with respect to the PC GPUs but then showing off console hardware where a game looks better because it does have tech improvements.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Plague tale also looks like a generational leap, but I don't buy the excuses that the game couldn't run at 60fps on consoles. It doesn't even perform that great on PC, which shows it was poorly optimized.

This is the shit that irritates me. You have 0 knowledge about their engine which is doing things never done before and saying it's unoptimized because you aren't happy with the performance. What's your excuse with the Matrix demo?

 

[PropellerEar]

Cross-gen isn't a limitation from the development pipelines team.

Say what?
You think of game development from some perverted point of view?

Again you are thinking that just because the developers have to deal with the PS4 that they can't make better looking games with the PS5 although you will praise R&C on the PS5 as being the graphics next-gen game out due strictly to how it looks as opposed to the graphics techniques it used.

There are reasons it's not a cross gen game.

Are you guys claiming that Insomniac can do better than R&C with their next title and they need more time to write an optimized RT reflection function so that it's less costly later than now? How do you know what the developer has or hasn't done? I mean, really?

Yes they can do better than R&C with their next titles.

 

[PropellerEar]

No because it's subjective opinion not based on facts.

At the end of the day its the day its the subjective opinion is the only thing that has any value.

I could say whatever I want and people would have to except what I say as ground truth??

That's what your trying to do...

That's why we have a big disconnect between each other. You want to declare what you think looks good to YOU as the ground truth instead of what I think is better.

That is the only measurement on what looks good.
What you're trying to do is to force some level of self mastubatory douche snobbery that only gets your rocks off, calm the fuck down.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Say what?
You think of game development from some perverted point of view?

You can't possibly label a graphics engine as 'next-gen' when it's constantly being updated from year to year. Is UE in a stagnant state such that you can label it as 'last-gen'? The engine doesn't get rewritten. Things get added onto it. It supports last gen and next-gen because it's gen agnostic. We've coded using Unity and UE for our realtime missile simulations and both have code to support RT and other graphics algorithms including support for older techniques.

Yes they can do better than R&C with their next titles.

What can they do better? Please share. Full RT lighting? Nanite-like terrain (which Plague has)? True volume smoke using 3D spatial structures with ray marching? AO with their hair strands? Full RTGI? Name it.

 

[PropellerEar]

This is the shit that irritates me. You have 0 knowledge about their engine which is doing things never done before and saying it's unoptimized because you aren't happy with the performance. What's your excuse with the Matrix demo?

Do you even read what you write..

...
Demo... excuses...

Vs Retail game that you pay for to play?

 

[Satoru]

This is the shit that irritates me. You have 0 knowledge about their engine which is doing things never done before and saying it's unoptimized because you aren't happy with the performance. What's your excuse with the Matrix demo?

Their game fucking stalls an rtx3090 on certain settings and you're talking about optimization? It's not even the best looking game there. It's shit optimized, it doesn't mean its not a gorgeous looking game.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Do you even read what you write..

...
Demo... excuses...

Vs Retail game that you pay for to play?

Yea, this is the same shit I ran into before. You just joke about what I write without any content whatsoever on what I write is wrong. So I'll leave it as I should have before. Continue to think what you will...

 

[Deleted member 13]

Their game fucking stalls an rtx3090 on certain settings

Stalls? I'm not getting any stalls playing this game and I've maxed out the settings.

and you're talking about optimization?

I'm not saying the game doesn't need optimization. But it's not so unoptimized that making it optimized will yield a change from 1080p/30 to 4k/60. Sorry. The game is doing a lot of shit different than every other game out.

It's not even the best looking game there.

Right.. According to you, you need multicolored lights with simple object detail and cartoony characters to be "best looking". I also didn't know that there was a clear objective winner in "best looking" category.

It's shit optimized, it doesn't mean its not a gorgeous looking game.

If you think the game can be optimized to the point that the consoles should be running at 4k/60FPS or even 4k/30FPS then say so. What's your expert opinion on what the game should be running?

 

[PropellerEar]

You can't possibly label a graphics engine as 'next-gen' when it's constantly being updated from year to year.

Yes you can, and that is exactly what Epic wants to do with UE5.

 

[Deleted member 13]

Yes you can, and that is exactly what Epic wants to do with UE5.

It's version 5 dude. It's still backwards compatible. Software gets versions all the time. That doesn't mean it's a brand new from scratch engine. It's not. There is RT in UE4.

 

[PropellerEar]

Yea, this is the same shit I ran into before. You just joke about what I write without any content whatsoever on what I write is wrong. So I'll leave it as I should have before. Continue to think what you will...

It's written there clearly...no joke.

 

[PropellerEar]

It's version 5 dude. It's still backwards compatible. Software gets versions all the time. That doesn't mean it's a brand new from scratch engine. It's not. There is RT in UE4.

You asked can you label engine like UE next gen.

I answered that this is literally what Epic wants to do with UE5, label it a next gen engine.
What is so hard to understand?
Your feelings about product versioning have no relevance.

 

[Hobbygaming]

It does once you're used to 60fps. Playing Gotham just wasn't smooth, fluid or responsive. I think it also depends on the type of game. Requiem at 40fps with VRR on my LG CX OLED plays and feels better but it's a slow paced stealth oriented game with some chase/action scenes where as Gotham, there's a lot of combat and it needs that fluidity that it's simply lacking.

Last generation, games at 30fps like HZD or GOW and others felt great because the combat/gameplay itself was great. A game like Gotham where it's not great just becomes worse at 30fps where as with 60fps, it would help out the game to feel better to play.

Sure, better looking games are welcome but in all honesty, the only game this generation that I could say I was disappointed in regards to visuals was Halo Infinite but the combat/gameplay at 60fps made up for it and is an exchange I will always take regardless of the game.

I just wish the developers and publishers would concentrate on the performance aspects of their games and at the very least, just give me the option for 60fps even if it's at 1080p since im not a resolution or visuals guy.

I think they will continue to go for visuals to help sell their games. AAA games that have bad or average graphics get piled on nowadays. People dont say, "well at least its 60fps" if the game looks bad

 

[peter42O]

I think they will continue to go for visuals to help sell their games. AAA games that have bad or average graphics get piled on nowadays. People dont say, "well at least its 60fps" if the game looks bad

I agree but how many AAA games nowadays really look bad or average? It's very rare. At worse, you may get a game that's disappointing but that could also be due to unrealistic expectations which all gamers seem to have nowadays despite the fact that they should know better.

 

[Satoru]

I'm not saying the game doesn't need optimization. But it's not so unoptimized that making it optimized will yield a change from 1080p/30 to 4k/60. Sorry. The game is doing a lot of shit different than every other game out.

Neither I said it should. But I did say that for 1440p 30fps is unacceptable.

Right.. According to you, you need multicolored lights with simple object detail and cartoony characters to be "best looking". I also didn't know that there was a clear objective winner in "best looking" category.

How patronising, but no.

If you think the game can be optimized to the point that the consoles should be running at 4k/60FPS or even 4k/30FPS then say so. What's your expert opinion on what the game should be running?

It can be optimized to the point of where it can either do 1440p 60fps or 4k 30fps. Case in point is the following video.

There's places where even at "low" 4k it goes below 60fps. The FPS fluctuation on itself shows it's not a very stable or optimized game.

Compare it with ultra with the same resolution in a much busier area (9:30 ish). The FPS delta between medium, high and ultra is tiny on that section btw, showing how their engine has issues scaling it's graphical options.

It's poorly optimized both on PC and consoles, and the FPS numbers between Low, Medium, High and Ultra prove this.