NPD December 2022 (PS5 #1 Revenue, Switch #1 Units, Xbox @ $200 Forever #3, Leaked LTD up to Nov 2022: 10.6m PS5 / 8.7m Xbox)

twinspectre

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i think you're mistaken. Sony is clearly cornering the 'core' market as part of their strategy. huge $500m productions like god of war are only consistently coming out of one company, and the proof is plain as day as to who's invested and who isn't.

MS has ceded that market after a particularly rough outing with the Xbox One last generation.

Ms is now positioning Xbox as a mass-market, value friendly proposition for kids and gamers who are less in the know. (i.e casuals).
Oh for fu*k sakes, God of War is designed for the mass market (casuals).
Who sold more hardware? PlayStation, clearly all these numbers is dominated by casuals. You have no idea what hardcore is.
As I said before MS is also focused their attention and they are trying to appeal their games to the casuals.
"Gamers who are less in the know" that's you, the guy that play only what the masses play.
EDIT: You're trying to say with this "MS has ceded that market after a particularly rough outing with the Xbox One last generation." that the 360 was hardcore? you're wrong again.
 

Bodycount611

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Oh for fu*k sakes, God of War is designed for the mass market (casuals).
Who sold more hardware? PlayStation, clearly all these numbers is dominated by casuals. You have no idea what hardcore is.
As I said before MS is also focused their attention and they are trying to appeal their games to the casuals.
Point is, Xbox is doing cheaper games, chasing value, and eyeing smaller-scale projects.

Sony is investing heavily in graphically intensive, expensive as heck AAA single-player games with massive budgets, that launch for $70.

Whether these games sell a lot or not doesn't dictate whether they're casual or not. The point is, Sony is invested in giving core games consumers what they want, and MS isn't anymore.

MS is offering a value proposition with gamepass freeware.
 

twinspectre

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Point is, Xbox is doing cheaper games, chasing value, and eyeing smaller-scale projects.

Sony is investing heavily in graphically intensive, expensive as heck AAA single-player games with massive budgets, that launch for $70.

Whether these games sell a lot or not doesn't dicatate whether they're casual or not. The point is, Sony is invested in giving core games consumers what they want, and MS is isn't anymore. MS is offering a value proposition with gamepass freeware.
Point is, you have no Idea.
What has this to do with hardcore?
You have no idea about hardcore, and you're proving it everytime you come out with this stuff.

"Sony is investing heavily in graphically intensive" = "Eye candy for the masses" or "to get the attention from the masses".
A hardcore game can cost even 0.99$-€
 

Bodycount611

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I don't know what to tell you man, sure "Natural Doctrine' is a more "hardcore' game than god of war. doesn't negate the fact that Natural Doctrine was probably made for $30k by a team of 10 guys in a tokyo office the size of a cubbyhole. It's only hardcore in that no one knows about it or has played it.

By my definition of hardcore, i mean that sony has a massive amount of money invested in world class AAA single payer games, developing top quality projects, and securing massive exclusives like Final Fantasy 16. Sony is 100% aiming to squeeze MS out of the core games market. Core games market being the most popular games that hardcore gamers want to play.

MS is pushing vampire survivors, rocket league, and fall guys dude. The Series X is on life support. Series S is all you see them push. They have no skin in the game when it comes to core gaming experiences. I'm proved right by Xbox's dismal 2022 showing.

It is what it is.
 

Darth Vader

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i think you're mistaken. You're going down a completely path. Sony is clearly cornering the 'core' market as part of their strategy. huge $500m productions like god of war are only consistently coming out of one company, and the proof is plain as day as to who's invested and who isn't. Just look at 2022.

MS has ceded that market after a particularly rough outing with the Xbox One last generation.

Ms is now positioning Xbox as a mass-market, value friendly proposition for kids and gamers who are less in the know. (i.e casuals).

I seriously doubt god of war cost 300 million, let alone 500.
 

twinspectre

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I don't know what to tell you man, sure "Natural Dcotrine' is a more "hardcore' game than god of war. doesn't negate the fact that Natural Doctrine was probably made for $30k by a team of 10 guys in a tokyo office the size of a cubbyhole. It's only hardcore in that no one knows about it or has played it.

By my definition of hardcore, i mean that sony has a massive amount of money invested in world class AAA single payer games, developing top quality projects, and securing massive exclusives like Final Fantasy 16. Sony is 100% aiming to squeeze MS out of the core games market. Core games market being the most popular games that hardcore gamers want to play.

MS is pushing vampire survivors, rocket league, and fall guys dude. The Series X is on life support. Series S is all you see them push. They have no skin in the game when it comes to core gaming experiences.

It is what it is.
This has to be some candid camera, where's the camera?
30k or 10 people has nothing to do with hardcore, Sony investing heavy is because they are trying to sell the game to the masses aka the casuals.
Hardcore gamers are a small group of gamers that want to play games that the masses ignore, that's why I put Natural docrtine and Inferno climber, what you're trying to say has nothing to do with hardcore games.
Sony selling all these copies is because these games are casual friendly.
Again, you have 0 idea what hardcore means, because everything you're saying has nothing to do with hardcore gaming.

I make a game that is super casual friendly, and some guy call it "hardcore" gaming **Rolling eyes**
 

Gediminas

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Core Gamer - gamer, who buys and plays wide range of games with moderate hours spent.
Hardcore gamer - gamer, who play games all the time, from AAA till Powerwash Simulator, completionist.
Casual gamer - gamer, who isn't serious about games. usually spends time in one or few games to kill time.
 
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peter42O

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But how does MS cut the 2:1 difference to a 1.5:1 difference if PS is gaining over them in not just ROTW markets, but also the UK and even the US? Do you really thing the appeal of games like Starfield in GP will make the difference?

Because I can say this right now: even if/when MS get approved for ABK, they aren't putting new COD games into Game Pass Day 1. They simply aren't going to keep subsidizing money for the Xbox division that much going forward, and they aren't going to cut the legs of COD's revenue potential through direct sales by putting it Day 1 in a service with various cheap loopholes available that drive down the ARPU.

They're gaining over them now because Microsoft's output has been non-existent for the most part. Also, the hardcore fans already own their console of choice where as the later years is usually casual that jump in and if Microsoft has a $200 Series S and Game Pass, that's simply a lot to overcome. A lot of games will give Game Pass a boost. What will do it most is just Microsoft being consistent with releases.

As for COD, it will be day one in Game Pass as will every Microsoft first party game. They're not going to change that or make any exceptions regardless of the game. Doing that would harm their platform, eco-system and messaging more than not having as many sales on Xbox. For Microsoft and Xbox, they'll never reach the sales numbers of Sony and no one is reaching is Nintendo so for them, it's all about Game Pass and the best way to build it is by having massive games in the service.

You're looking way too into the money aspect but not taking into account the sales COD would still get on Battle.net, Steam, PlayStation (if available) and Nintendo. Losing sales on Xbox but gaining subscribers will be far more valuable plus don't forget, they will gain a shit ton of revenue from micro-transactions across all platforms.

But here's the thing: at one point, MS actually did have a lot of favorable mindshare. When they revealed Series X at TGAs 2019, it was a success. Sony came out with a PS5 logo and got laughed at. Even after Sony fully revealed the PS5 in March 2020 (aside from how it looked), mind share for Series X held pretty well.

Then May 2020 happened. The combination of that "gameplay" showcase, then the PS5 UE5 demo coming right after, was probably the first big mistake for MS leading into this gen. Halo Infinite's mediocre showcase the following June was another blow, then afterwards revealing the Series S because IMO, they started confusing their messaging. You can't argue you have both the most powerful and cheapest console on the market if they're two different consoles and the former isn't demonstrating its supposed power.

Since then all of their messaging & marketing has basically veered towards Series S and Game Pass; I think if MS either made Series S what Project Keystone was set to be, and/or just forwent Series S altogether to focus on Series X and pushing its power, they'd of probably actually been holding well in the US or even be slightly ahead of PS5 in NA. Particularly because 2021 was, in honesty, a bit of a "light" year for PS5 exclusives, meanwhile MS had both Forza & Halo releasing, plus some notable Day 1 Game Pass games.

If there was any year where MS could have actually gained a lead on PlayStation, at least in US & UK, it was 2021, if we're talking anything not having to do with outside factors like supply constraints and supply inflation increases. But I think MS missed their chance and now they aren't getting another. What really changes for MS from 2024-onward vs. now? Yes they will have more big games but so will PlayStation, and Sony will likely have more of them. PS5 will be even stronger of a market performer by then than they are right now, so for whatever gains Xbox makes, they won't be enough (most likely) to keep full pace let alone start closing the gap.

Because, again, there's also ROTW and outside of US & UK, PS tends to vastly outperform Xbox. US & UK were at least 65% of 360's market share. It was close to similar with XBO. Considering numbers we've gotten from other foreign markets there's no reason to assume Series ROTW market share is any higher than 40% of total sales volume so the question becomes what is Microsoft going to bring to start getting serious in THOSE markets that isn't just simply Game Pass and xCloud availability?

I agree with this for the most part but again, as I have said, Microsoft just needs to be consistent with their first party releases. The quality is there regardless of what anyone wants to think or believe but the quantity and most importantly, the consistency isn't. Microsoft was thrashed in Europe last generation. It won't be the same this generation. It's all about Game Pass. This is their answer. It's not going to happen overnight but we saw a huge increase in subscriptions because of their 2021 second half lineup. They stay consistent, they will gain market share because people will want to play the games and with a lot of regions where games are $100+ for a single release, Game Pass is going to look like a Godsend. They don't need to do anything else. Game Pass IS their answer.

My belief though is that Series X volumes are only low because MS allocated what could have gone towards more Series Xs, and directed that towards Series S production budgets instead.

The whole angle of selling as the cheap option with Game Pass isn't working as well as MS would have liked; it's been said before that Series S is underperforming relative to its intent and the new NPD number leaks just outright confirm that IMHO. The fact is, they need those big 1P games consistently to benefit both the X AND the S; simply trying to sell the power narrative or cheap value narrative isn't working as well as MS probably projected it would.

Series S only didn't do as well last year because well, there's no first party output. Do you really believe that 2023 will be a repeat if they release 5 or so first party games? Microsoft knew that once they delayed Starfield, Redfall and Forza Motorsport that they were going to take a hit overall and that's fine because they have a long way to go with this generation.

Again, what are MS offering 2024-onward that suggests they have anything to close the gaps globally? What games are they bringing which will have the appeal globally to do so? And I'm talking about among what they actually own right now, not hypotheticals like if they get ABK (because a good deal of that content will still be on PlayStation and some of it will not hit Game Pass Day 1, such as COD or games like Diablo for that matter).

I'm not saying they don't have games coming post-2024, or that they don't have anything good in the pipeline. But marketability-wise, in terms of having mass appeal in many global markets, what do they really have? TES VI is the only game I can think of at the top of my head maybe helping there.

Hellblade 2, Fable, Indiana Jones, The Elder Scrolls VI, next Coalition, Id Software, etc. games. Plus Avowed, The Outer Worlds 2, etc. They have plenty of games and the reason they'll increase their console market share is because many people will want to play these games and when they know they can get it on Game Pass day one, why wouldn't they jump in? Microsoft doesn't need the big blockbuster game because they're not reliant on console sales and whatnot. They just want you in the eco-system which for this generation will mainly be console but there will still be those who play on PC and possibly streaming later on in the generation. It's more of a collection of various options as opposed to just one singular one.

That's assuming Project Keystone is still coming. Personally, I think it is, but then the question becomes how appealing is cloud gaming really to the mass market?

I think MS are running into a similar problem Sega did back in the mid-'90s: too many gaming products eating at each other among their brand base and product line. It can also lead to a fractured focus in software development, similar to what we saw with Sega back then. The problems manifest a bit differently but I think there are definitely some core similarities between the two.

The difference is that MS has money to try attempting that and weather the storm if things don't work; Sega didn't. But that doesn't prevent Microsoft from potentially alienating more customers than they gain, and that's something they could risk with having so many divergent console gaming products being simultaneously offered, even if some are for cloud gaming exclusively, because that still means a finite budget for resources (production, R&D, marketing etc.) has to be spread among more products. It also means their 1P teams will have to be more considerate of the technical limits of these various devices, which can affect game scope and features to varying degrees.

The difference though is that the development will still be the same like Switch is for Nintendo. Instead of dividing studios to develop games for a console, a handheld, etc., Microsoft does one version of the game and it simply gets optimized for how you want to play it. I don't think that they will have a Streaming stick or anything like that. I believe that they will Game Pass included in 4KTV's later this generation like Netflix and whatnot to where you just access it. They have that adapter for the controller that you connect into the USB port and that's it. You're good to go.

Two consoles like it is now. PC for those who want the best superior experience and TV apps/cloud for those who just want access to the subscription service and games. And of course, cloud will be there for those who play on the go or are on business trips/vacations.

Sega oversaturated their own market with Genesis, 32X and Sega CD. All three were different, required different games and whatnot. This is not Microsoft is doing. For them, it's all going to be seamless and integrated. This is why I believe they eliminated Keystone. Why having a streaming stick when you can just make deals with TV manufacturers to include a Game Pass app pre-loaded right out of the box? That's how I see it anyway.

Have to wait and see how the generation plays out. I simply believe that it won't play out like majority believe it will. Again, we'll see.
 

twinspectre

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Core Gamer - gamer, who buys and plays wide range of games with moderate hours spent.
Hardcore gamer - gamer, who play games all the time, from AAA till Powerwash Simulator, completionist.
Casual gamer - gamer, who isn't serious about games. usually spends time in one or few games to kill time.
By this logic, there's only one true hardcore gamer, and that is the guy that spend 48hours non stop gaming.
So, I'm a true hardcore gamer? since I plat a game that was online only and it was played by 1000 people.

I'm talking about a gamer that play games that aren't designed for the masses, a gamer that knows hidden gems, a gamer that plays obscure games, a gamer that gives 0 f**k about budget, a gamer that play games not because jaw dropping graphic, etc.
 

Gods&Monsters

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By this logic, there's only one true hardcore gamer, and that is the guy that spend 48hours non stop gaming.
So, I'm a true hardcore gamer? since I plat a game that was online only and it was played by 1000 people and that plat has a percentage of 0.1%

I'm talking about a gamer that play games that aren't designed for the masses, a gamer that knows hidden gems, a gamer that plays obscure games, a gamer that gives 0 f**k about budget, a gamer thatplay games not because jaw dropping graphic, etc.
All of this is irrelevant. You can drop it.

Judge Judy Reaction GIF
 

twinspectre

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All of this is irrelevant. You can drop it.

Judge Judy Reaction GIF
Ah yes, because it goes against your "I play only because it has a big budget, and the graphic is so amazing" idea (which is wrong) of "hardcore"?
What games do you play? let me guess you play only well known games, right?

I can't believe "marketing to the masses" = hardcore.
 

Gediminas

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By this logic, there's only one true hardcore gamer, and that is the guy that spend 48hours non stop gaming.
So, I'm a true hardcore gamer? since I plat a game that was online only and it was played by 1000 people.

I'm talking about a gamer that play games that aren't designed for the masses, a gamer that knows hidden gems, a gamer that plays obscure games, a gamer that gives 0 f**k about budget, a gamer that play games not because jaw dropping graphic, etc.
hardcore gamer is basically who spends all the time gaming. in toilet, in train, at house etc. + who knows and plays highest variety of games from AAA till super niche.

you can't call yourself a hardcore gamer, if you play ultra niche game 3h or 4h a week. basically he isn't serious about gaming and he is just casual who likes those games.
 

twinspectre

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hardcore gamer is basically who spends all the time gaming. in toilet, in train, at house etc. + who knows and plays highest variety of games from AAA till super niche.

you can't call yourself a hardcore gamer, if you play ultra niche game 3h or 4h a week. basically he isn't serious about gaming and he is just casual who likes those games.
So, the guy that spend 135hours non stop is the true and only hardcore gamer.
Then Mom's are also hardcore? because they play everywhere with their phone, or this isn't valid? because smartphone?
"You can't call yourself a hardcore gamer, if you play ultra niche game 3h or 4h a week", what?
Dude, just like with movies, there's casual (masses) that watches only big budget movies, and there's the one that is more passionate about movies that is willing to watch more obscure movies, but I see with videogames this isn't possible, because not.
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

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LMAO, You're confirming to be part of the casuals. Hardware has nothing to do with core and casual.
Like I said before, hardcore gamers are the ones that play games that nobody gives a f, Last time I checked games like Last of Us, Halo, Gears, God of War are games that masses play, right? which translate in? CASUAL games, wanna play hardcore games? go play NAtURAL DOCTRINE on PS4.... oh wait, You had 0 idea this game existed right? which means You're a casual gamer and play only games that the masses know.
You play games that come from Activision, EA, Ubisoft, right? which means the only publishers that are well known even by the masses (casuals) try to play Inferno Climber available on PS4.... oh wait you had 0 idea this game existed too, right? see? You're a casual gamer that got confused with the concept of "hardcore gamer", as you can see I know games that most of you (Casual) didn't knew existed.

Here's your logic "I watch Marvel, and Avatar. I'm hardcore", no Junior, Hardcore searches for obscure movies.

handholding, dumbed down gameplay is also a prove that these games are designed to please the casuals.
He is not talking about hardware but software…

GoW for more you like or not is in the core game.
Fortnite, Fallguys, Rocket League are not.
 
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adamsapple

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hardcore gamer is basically who spends all the time gaming. in toilet, in train, at house etc. + who knows and plays highest variety of games from AAA till super niche.

you can't call yourself a hardcore gamer, if you play ultra niche game 3h or 4h a week. basically he isn't serious about gaming and he is just casual who likes those games.

holy shit talk about absolutely terrible takes :ROFLMAO:


@Gods&Monsters please tell us you don't sanction this buffoonery.
 
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ethomaz

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Call be pessimist but I don’t think MS will release half of the games Xbox believes it will launch in 2023.

Most games will be delayed including Starfield that imo will launch in fall.
 

twinspectre

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He is not talking about hardware but software…
Didn't knew Activision, Ubisoft and EA makes hardware and not software.
He also mentioned Hardware, try to read everything he said,
He is not talking about hardware but software…

GoW for more you like or not is in the core game.
Fortnite, Fallguys, Rocket League are not.
God of War is casual, wanna know why? Atreaus handhold you with his chittychatty, which means the game is made for casuals.
Again, PlayStation is more casual than you think, for sure they are the global leader not because the core gamers, but because they managed to sell their product to a wider audience, and guess what? the wider audience are far bigger than hardcore gamer, you're being delusional if you think 99% of PlayStation owner are core gamers.
You're delusional to think Sony's first party games are made for hardcore, because clearly they are NOT.
If you play them and pay attention at the gameplay and not the story you can see it and feel it, but since some of you story comes first, then it is too difficult to spot these stuff.
 
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riesgoyfortuna

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Didn't knew Activision, Ubisoft and EA makes hardware and not software.
He also mentioned Hardware, try to read everything he said,

God of War is casual, wanna know why? Atreaus handhold you with his chittychatty, which means the game is made for casuals.
Again, PlayStation is more casual than you think, for sure they are the global leader not because the core gamers, but because they managed to sell their product to a wider audience, and guess what? the wider audience are far bigger than hardcore gamer, you're being delusional if you think 99% of PlayStation owner are core gamers.
You're delusional to think Sony's first party games are made for hardcore, because clearly they are NOT.
If you play them and pay attention at the gameplay and not the story you can see it and feel it, but since some of you story comes first, then it is too difficult to spot these stuff.
are you drunk or something?